10kw for a geothermal heat pump sounds like a very large system. Turning 10kw directly to heat with an electric resistance setup would give you 34,100 BTU (which is close to the net output of the furnace in our house). A heat pump is more efficient than that.
For an efficiency comparison, 1 watt = 3.41 BTU/hr. Doing a little math based on the reverse cycle heat pump mode of the A/C units on the boat, 16,000 BTU of heat (water sourced, so similar to geothermal) uses at worst 1500 watts, and that includes the blower fan and water pump on the unit. At 1500 watts, that's 10.67 BTU per watt of input, or 3.1 times as efficient as resistance heat. And the A/C units in question here are less efficient than the currently available home units. So let's conservatively figure a geothermal setup will achieve the same 3.1 times efficiency and that means 10kw of input would give 105,710 BTU, which assuming good insulation will heat a fairly large house.
I am vehemently anti-EV and ICE for life, yet simultaneously excited about the possibilities of hypermodern platforms when they are done in the realm of my lovemuch which is the classic 3dr hot hatch...
...and hopefully perhaps some genuinely fun stuff will appear.
If this Renault R5 3E was available to the USA public right this very now, I would be an early adopter!
:
beyond the digital render,
& in the flesh:
Erich
UberDork
2/25/23 1:10 p.m.
In reply to rslifkin :
My friend says it's about 2.5 kw for the geo loop to run, and 2.5 kw for the heat pump. If it gets cold enough to fire up the resistance heater, that's an additional 5kw. He does have a large house. It's not uncommon for him to use more than 25 kwh overnight.
In reply to rslifkin :
I followed you right up to the end. Please complete the formula. What outside air temp to what inside air temp? Yesterday it was minus 19 when I woke up and because of my wife's diabetes the inside air temp was 76 ( yeh, I know, shorty pajama's and no shirt )
Caperix said:
The power grid issue is coming from multiple sources as well. Many states are also baning gas in new construction. Meaning in colder climates using the heat will be very inefficient emergency heat on a heat pump. In North Carolina this year we had blackouts due to exceptional cold weather around Christmas time. Evs that can feed back into the grid may help with the short period high demand.
I don't like the current planned laws that say if an ev does not work for you after 2035 you will not be able to buy a new car/truck. Hopefully we will see more hybrid options, but many companies are not researching hybrid because bevs are better media.
Apartment dwellers are going to get the stick unless they are forced to install chargers. Using public fast charging can be just as expensive as refueling & could get worse as demand increases.
Some apartment managers seek higher end clientele. So that will be simple. They will call for bids to put chargers in. And raise the rent accordingly.
Others follow the leads of those higher end dwellers so again just a phone call away.
Here in the snow belt most apartment garages already have 110 outlets. So again it's a no brainer.
Down south once the owners see extension cords running out to the cars they too will install outlets in the parking lot. ( and raise the rents accordingly).
The ones I'll feel sorry for are the die hard commuters. Paying extra and driving that ICE.
Finally. The average American spends over $800 a month on transportation. $183 is gasoline. The rest payment, insurance, and maintenance.
Pick the right EV and your insurance will go down a bit. Maintenance will go down a bit, ( no oil changes and no repairs on something new with a warranty ) and your fuel charge will be closer to $18 a month than $ 180 a month. Leaving you with enough to make the payments on a Chevy, Nissan , or VW with nothing additional out of pocket and maybe a little extra for other things.
I mention those 3 because of price and the ability to recharge overnight on 110 volt.
Oldboy Speedwell said:
I am vehemently anti-EV and ICE for life, yet simultaneously excited about the possibilities of hypermodern platforms when they are done in the realm of my lovemuch which is the classic 3dr hot hatch...
...and hopefully perhaps some genuinely fun stuff will appear.
If this Renault R5 3E was available to the USA public right this very now, I would be an early adopter!
:
beyond the digital render,
& in the flesh:
You absolutely have that right. But aren't there EV's fast enough to excite you? I've watch a stock Tesla defeat some very fast ICE cars in drag races.
Understand. I love ICE. My garage is filled with them and motors. Gear boxes. I've raced them all over the country ( and the Bahama's )
But on my tiny income I have too save money any way I can. Transportation to and from work is one major area. Average per month for an American is well over $800 per month.
Back when I worked as a mechanic I thought I was way below that until I kept track of everything. Parts I'd need to pick up, oil, gas. Antifreeze, every thing.
I was working on my Buick. And mentally totaled up that month it was almost $1000. Yeh! the Buick had really been acting up but it was a pretty car I finished up and drove it to the Chevy dealer for a brand new car. And from there on I spent less then I'd been spending on older cars I had paid cash for.
Now I research completely and when I buy I drive it until It's ready for the junkyard. Lately it's over 20 years.
If you want something different and trade it in it doesn't work.
The other advantage of treating transportation as just that is you get to spend all of your spare time on your race car.
You're doing what you want when you want to do it.
frenchyd said:
In reply to rslifkin :
Extended deadlines isn't likely. Fuel mileage deadlines were met, pollution levels were met. Water and air quality issues have been met. The technology to do so is well known. It only lacks Capitol investment.
That is the simplest solution of all. It's how America pays for all our wars.
We simply inflate our way out of debt.
That last sentence.... explain that like we are both five years old and trading M&Ms and Oreos....
The substation attack was a separate issue from the cold weather blackouts, it did occur close to the same time though.
Teslas are very fast but I do not find them fun or engaging to drive, there are many ice cars that fit this category as well. Current battery heat management does not let many bevs run a full power for very long, so they do not make good track toys. I'm hoping this will lead to some more affordable performance based hybrids. The corvette e ray looks like a step in the right direction & rumors are the next Miata will be hybrid.
Bevs make good appliances, but I hope for the future that there are still new ice, or performance hybrids to play with.
frenchyd said:
In reply to rslifkin :
I followed you right up to the end. Please complete the formula. What outside air temp to what inside air temp? Yesterday it was minus 19 when I woke up and because of my wife's diabetes the inside air temp was 76 ( yeh, I know, shorty pajama's and no shirt )
Our house is ~1300 sq ft with decent, but not great insulation. Furnace is 40k BTU on high stage, 27k on low stage. We usually keep the house around 66 - 68 in the winter, and I've never seen the furnace run continuously on low stage, let alone need high stage to hold temperature. Coldest it's ever been since we moved here was low single digits with ~30 mph winds.
For the boat example I was using, I was just looking at BTU output vs power consumption of the system when running continuously. This is in the spring with water temps in the mid 40s to low 50s (air temp colder than that) and maintaining an inside temp of 72-ish. That's likely in the ballpark of what many geothermal heat pumps see for temperature, although I wasn't expecting to hear that some of those systems have a 2.5kw pump to circulate water.
The pump on the boat system that moves plenty of water for the 16k BTU unit draws under 200 watts and it's not the most efficient pump on the market. Geothermal will need more pumping power to move water further, but I'd still think a 2.5kw pump sounds big enough to feed a system well north of 100k BTU.
I've got one of those late 2000s heat pump + NG Furnace combinations, that kick the fires on if the temps drop too far for the heat pump to run properly. I thought it was a poor idea until the cold surges we are now getting each year to sub -30F temps (Thinks climate change!) hit, and because of that even with the Tesla on top of that my electrical bill has never gone over ~$140 or so in a month. I think that'll really be the "real" fix here- having multiple tools in the toolbox essentially, because a heat pump running 90% of the year is still a system that is keeping you from needing combustion 90% of the time.
Caperix said:
Bevs make good appliances, but I hope for the future that there are still new ice, or performance hybrids to play with.
Ye, that's how I kinda see my Model 3 too. I love the thing, but when you feel cars like the AW11 MR2, nothing compares 
. But that's fine! I friggin LOVE having a performance car I'm no longer worrying if it's pinging.
parker said:
Didn't say I don't have electricity. I have solar panels and battery backup. I would cost about $40,000 to install a system with enough grunt to charge an EV in 2 days.
No E36 M3? Got pics to share? I've been wanting to scrap together a solar cell for my home to learn on for awhile.
Full disclosure; this year I'm going to get a battery powered mower. LOL.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:
frenchyd said:
In reply to rslifkin :
Extended deadlines isn't likely. Fuel mileage deadlines were met, pollution levels were met. Water and air quality issues have been met. The technology to do so is well known. It only lacks Capitol investment.
That is the simplest solution of all. It's how America pays for all our wars.
We simply inflate our way out of debt.
That last sentence.... explain that like we are both five years old and trading M&Ms and Oreos....
America doesn't use a war tax. ( well, we did in WW2, kinda the exception that proves the rule) we wind up with a massive debt post war. And with inflation the debt becomes manageable, absorbed, and becomes background.
Pre WW2 the average new car was $1000. Post war it was $2000 a new house was $2000 post war it's $4000 A loaf of bread was 5 cents. Postwar 10 cents.
Look at the inflation post Vietnam And well we are currently inflating our way past Iraq and Afghanistan.
Next up for your consideration will be Ukraine v Russia.
In reply to rslifkin :
Thank you. Mentally I had assumed you were closer to the national average Re: sq. Ft.
With temps closer to 70 and probably a lower OAT.
Caperix said:
The substation attack was a separate issue from the cold weather blackouts, it did occur close to the same time though.
Teslas are very fast but I do not find them fun or engaging to drive, there are many ice cars that fit this category as well. Current battery heat management does not let many bevs run a full power for very long, so they do not make good track toys. I'm hoping this will lead to some more affordable performance based hybrids. The corvette e ray looks like a step in the right direction & rumors are the next Miata will be hybrid.
Bevs make good appliances, but I hope for the future that there are still new ice, or performance hybrids to play with.
I was thinking Formula E sorta dealt with the sporting versions of auto racing. As for shorter, doesn't that align with modern short attention spans?
But wow what a opportunity for improvement. With power to ICE being restricted by every possible regulation.
The potential to reduce battery weight is a wonderful incentive to gain efficiency.
In reply to frenchyd :
I disagree. $31 trillion in debt says the US didn't inflate its way out of anything. Your grand daughter is buried in your debts and so are all kids. It's a terrible way to treat future generations.
In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :
We inherited the WW2 debt. Approx 4 trillion dollars. When 35 cents / hr was a decent income.
They are now making $15-20 hr. Doing the same level of jobs.
Remember only 2 times since WW2 has the budget even been balanced. Under Eisenhower and under Clinton.
No body has ever paid off the national debt.
7 trillion dollars was added to the national debt under the previous administration.
Opti
SuperDork
2/26/23 10:50 p.m.
In reply to frenchyd :
Countries have used inflation as a way out of debt. We do not. We just accrue more.
We used 7.5% of our spending last year on interest payments alone and almost 10% of our revenue, because yes we operate on a deficit, adding yet more to that debt. Plus with the fed raising rates our interest payments are expected to grow by about a third in 2023, to somewhere between 650-700 billion, which is quickly approaching our ~850b defense budget, on interest alone.
Don't forget about how bad rapid inflation is for the average america
Opti
SuperDork
2/26/23 10:55 p.m.
Sorry that chart is a little out of date. It's almost doubled since then to about 31T
BAMF
HalfDork
2/26/23 11:08 p.m.
frenchyd said:
America doesn't use a war tax. ( well, we did in WW2, kinda the exception that proves the rule) we wind up with a massive debt post war. And with inflation the debt becomes manageable, absorbed, and becomes background.
I recall reading something to the effect that the Iraq war was the first time the USA reduced taxes during war time.
frenchyd said:
In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :
We inherited the WW2 debt. Approx 4 trillion dollars. When 35 cents / hr was a decent income.
They are now making $15-20 hr. Doing the same level of jobs.
Remember only 2 times since WW2 has the budget even been balanced. Under Eisenhower and under Clinton.
No body has ever paid off the national debt.
7 trillion dollars was added to the national debt under the previous administration.
Look at the chart above. Debt was no where near $4 T post WW2. No one is inflating the US out of debt. The US is inflating middle class into poverty though. This is one of the reasons I can't stand talking to your generation about economics. You screwed your kids, grandkids, and unborn great grandkids and all future generations and then have the audacity to brag about it. I'd rather listen to millennials and Gen Z on this topic than any boomer. And at least we won WW2.... since then it's been one disaster after another.
The power situation should be easier than government support- for plug in services, let the utilities make a profit, just like gas stations do- with conditions on the source. That will fill the country with charging stations as well as redo the grid.
And noting the profits that oil companies make on gas sales, there is a massive potential out there. Easy button.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:
frenchyd said:
In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :
We inherited the WW2 debt. Approx 4 trillion dollars. When 35 cents / hr was a decent income.
They are now making $15-20 hr. Doing the same level of jobs.
Remember only 2 times since WW2 has the budget even been balanced. Under Eisenhower and under Clinton.
No body has ever paid off the national debt.
7 trillion dollars was added to the national debt under the previous administration.
Look at the chart above. Debt was no where near $4 T post WW2. No one is inflating the US out of debt. The US is inflating middle class into poverty though. This is one of the reasons I can't stand talking to your generation about economics. You screwed your kids, grandkids, and unborn great grandkids and all future generations and then have the audacity to brag about it. I'd rather listen to millennials and Gen Z on this topic than any boomer. And at least we won WW2.... since then it's been one disaster after another.
You really fail to understand debt. I'll bet you think debt is bad. Well it can be but it also can be good. If a country or a person needs something to grow wealth then debt has the potential to be very good.
Like all things the devil is in the details.
Regarding America's post war debt. Like all things the devil is in the accounting. Look at the cost of common items. ( I gave a comparison earlier) in effect post WW2 items doubled in cost. A loaf of bread is a loaf of bread. Countries that repaid their war debt did so with inflated dollars. Some countries like Russia never did repay their debt.
BAMF said:
frenchyd said:
America doesn't use a war tax. ( well, we did in WW2, kinda the exception that proves the rule) we wind up with a massive debt post war. And with inflation the debt becomes manageable, absorbed, and becomes background.
I recall reading something to the effect that the Iraq war was the first time the USA reduced taxes during war time.
The first Gulf war America actually netted a profit. It takes a broad view to understand that. ( and putting a cash value on the lives lost). Since then We have spent the "profit" many many times over.
