I still don't see EV's Replacing ICEs.

Opti said:

Sorry that chart is a little out of date. It's almost doubled since then to about 31T

If you put that chart along side an inflation chart. Or the price of gold. You might be shocked at the similarities.  
     
    

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to frenchyd :

I disagree.  $31 trillion in debt says the US didn't inflate its way out of anything.  Your grand daughter is buried in your debts and so are all kids.  It's a terrible way to treat future generations.  

If you focus on the interest cost of debt,  you are absolutely correct.   However the most intelligent way to look at debt  is what did you get for your money?   
      If it's a vacation to Disneyland and a gamboling weekend  in Vegas   You have every right  to feel the money is wasted. 
  If you bought a house and  learned a marketable skill,   That is money well spent.   
       If you are looking at the government and cherry pick things you deem as wasteful. That's simply the wrong approach.  
     With 334 million people each will have an opinion about waste.  Whatever you pick,  you will be in the minority.    There may be a lot who agree on some things with you.  But still you are in the minority. 
 Since every American is entitled to a share of America.  Money spent by the government is going to reflect those differences. 

frenchyd said:

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to frenchyd :

I disagree.  $31 trillion in debt says the US didn't inflate its way out of anything.  Your grand daughter is buried in your debts and so are all kids.  It's a terrible way to treat future generations.  

If you focus on the interest cost of debt,  you are absolutely correct.   However the most intelligent way to look at debt  is what did you get for your money?   
      If it's a vacation to Disneyland and a gamboling weekend  in Vegas   You have every right  to feel the money is wasted. 
  If you bought a house and  learned a marketable skill,   That is money well spent.   
       If you are looking at the government and cherry pick things you deem as wasteful. That's simply the wrong approach.  
     With 334 million people each will have an opinion about waste.  Whatever you pick,  you will be in the minority.    There may be a lot who agree on some things with you.  But still you are in the minority. 
 Since every American is entitled to a share of America.  Money spent by the government is going to reflect those differences. 

Says the generation that benefited the most.  Your decisions hurt me.  It hurts millennials and Gen Z even more.  This is really why your opinions on this subject, are quite frankly, insulting.  It doesn't matter what we got for the $31 trillion to you because you don't have to pay it back.  My quality of life suffers because the interest on it is out of control.  Future generations are on the hook for interest plus principle.  

Im continually amazed how baby boomers went from damn the system hippies to totalitarians in about 50 years.  Now you want to dictate me how to view our current economic situation.  Honestly I still care way more about what millennials and Gen Z have to say about it, since ultimately you abdicated your fiscal irresponsibility to them.  
 

You lecturing us on EVs is almost as bad, but not quite.  Lecturing us on the debt your generation left for future generations is worse.  You are trying to justify actual financial harm to my kids and unborn grandkids.  I will never accept that as good.  You shouldn't either.  
 

I'd rather this discussion remain about EVs, but to clarify something about the national debt:  The federal debt interest rate is very low.  Like 2%

If I could loan myself money at 2%, I would do it constantly.

frenchyd said:

Opti said:

Sorry that chart is a little out of date. It's almost doubled since then to about 31T

If you put that chart along side an inflation chart. Or the price of gold. You might be shocked at the similarities.  
     
    

Gold used to track with it, but since debt has almost doubled in the last decade, gold is flat. We are at about 2012 gold levels. We aren't at 2012 debt levels. Please explain, you said I'd be shocked. I'm not.

Here's cumulative inflation

The more important thing to look at would be national household income. IIRC we gone from about 50k to 65-70k from 2012 to 2022. Remember the debt doubled over that same period, and the increase in income has not kept up with inflation, especially over the lats couple years.

Outside of these graphs generally go up and to the right, they have don't have the relationship you think they do, especially in the last5 or 10 years.

In reply to ProDarwin :

I personally would also take debt at 2% and I did during the pandemic. Let's continue the conversation though. If I was spending more than i was making and 10% of my income was spent on interest alone, not repayment, id also turn around and say that got way out of control and was pretty berkeleying stupid.

Also 2% seems cheap, but don't forget that was a massive jump from the 1.6 we where paying. It's expected to go up again in 2023, potentially another 30 percent.

ProDarwin said:

I'd rather this discussion remain about EVs, but to clarify something about the national debt:  The federal debt interest rate is very low.  Like 2%

 

If I could loan myself money at 2%, I would do it constantly.

I agree stick to EVs.  Sure 2% is low when talking about car loans.  It's not when talking about trillions.  No one ever wants to talk seriously about real issues anyway.  

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

President Carter tried the hardest to eliminate the National debt. 
  He got it down to 22% of the GDP.  Post Carter it's gone up with the exception of the 90's. 
   If you look at the national debt as a part of the GDP ( which solves the inflation aspect)  a real pattern emerges.   That is the first thing to look at if you want to be serious about eliminating the national debt. 

In reply to frenchyd :

our debt to GDP was 93.5% in 2012 and 129% in 2022.  Sounds like our debt is outpacing our GDP growth substantially.

Others agree

These things you keep mentioning don't illustrate what you think they do. You are dealing in false tropes and outdated information.

In reply to Opti :

 Your Chart is interesting,  courious why it includes those years when things are typically done by the decades.    It's also  not telling very much.
     A far more telling  set of numbers since say. WW2  would be very informative.   
      Look at Debt to GDP  ratios.  And then look at tax cuts.    You can see it spike up after every war we were involved in.   And worse after every tax cut.  ( hint; it's not all one sided)  it was lowest about 1980 at 22% then it bounced up to 78% and by the late  1990's was back down again into the mid 50's 
 Do you think that debt all occurred in the last couple of years? 
     Previous administration  put us 7 trillion in debt.    With the lag the first year of any  administration's  numbers are basically the policies set up by the previous administration. 
   

In reply to frenchyd :

  In a perfect world,  we'd have no debt.  However the easiest way to get votes is to promise to lower taxes.  The result of tax cuts is always greater debt.  
  The other way is to inspire  fear.  They're going to get you,  take things from you.  Doesn't much matter what  or who or how realistic it is.  
    Yet Statesmanship? The high ideals that are meant to lead us to aspire to do better.  
 The things our forefathers  did that we are so proud of?    Just sound like speeches. Politicians trying to get a job.  
   
      
        

"More jobs, better education, bigger civic improvements and lower taxes!" Mayor Goldie Wilson campaigning in Back to the Future.

Now, back to electric cars. Unless we want to talk about Ellen Muskrat.

In reply to frenchyd :

You cant blame debt to gdp on tax cuts alone. Debt has to do with what we spend and what we take in. Your only looking at one variable, what we take in. The argument could be made that you see a rise in debt when there are tax cuts because our spending doesnt change to match revenue, and we have a spending problem.

I realize the debt is cumulative and didnt all happen in the last couple years, but I focus on them, because thats when it when parabolic, and started accelerating. I never said that debt was bad, thats an argument to be had, but the current trend where debt it outpacing economic growth, as in we arent seeing a good return on that debt, and our interest spending on that debt alone will soon outgrow our defense budget, is what I have focused on specifically here. 

You were the one that mentioned tracking debt to other metrics, which dont show what you thought they did. I only obliged your point.

I also said you are using outdated tropes because yes countries used to inflate their way out of debt. Your WW2 example, Im pretty sure our debt was over 100% of GDP, because we were spending a ton and our GDP was depressed, there was a WORLD WAR, and after that war we were THE SUPERPOWER, which led to an explosion in our economy and massive growth in GDP and the debt to GDP ratio recovered rather quickly. As a country we saw massive gains from the debt. The current trend has almost nothing in common with what happened in WW2.

This started because you mentioned massive spending for infrastructure/EVs we could just "inflate" our way out of. I assume you where advocating for it, but I hope you werent because its a terrible idea.

You know a thread is over when it devolves into Frenchy and Anthony arguing about debt [scratch that, really any subject], no matter what the original intent was.

In reply to tuna55 :

Yeah; I opened Pandora's Box; the comments on the cost of infrastructure are relevant to the increase in EV use but clearly it devolved into "c'mon Bro, yeah you want some of this, C'mon Bro watcha got"..............sigh. 

Opti said:

In reply to frenchyd :

You cant blame debt to gdp on tax cuts alone. Debt has to do with what we spend and what we take in. Your only looking at one variable, what we take in. The argument could be made that you see a rise in debt when there are tax cuts because our spending doesnt change to match revenue, and we have a spending problem.

I realize the debt is cumulative and didnt all happen in the last couple years, but I focus on them, because thats when it when parabolic, and started accelerating. I never said that debt was bad, thats an argument to be had, but the current trend where debt it outpacing economic growth, as in we arent seeing a good return on that debt, and our interest spending on that debt alone will soon outgrow our defense budget, is what I have focused on specifically here. 

You were the one that mentioned tracking debt to other metrics, which dont show what you thought they did. I only obliged your point.

I also said you are using outdated tropes because yes countries used to inflate their way out of debt. Your WW2 example, Im pretty sure our debt was over 100% of GDP, because we were spending a ton and our GDP was depressed, there was a WORLD WAR, and after that war we were THE SUPERPOWER, which led to an explosion in our economy and massive growth in GDP and the debt to GDP ratio recovered rather quickly. As a country we saw massive gains from the debt. The current trend has almost nothing in common with what happened in WW2.

     

This started because you mentioned massive spending for infrastructure/EVs we could just "inflate" our way out of. I assume you where advocating for it, but I hope you werent because its a terrible idea 

 

 

  We agree that adding debt to the national  load would be a horrible idea.  
      Mainly because the electric grid is privately owned.  Well, it's a private company in business for profit  regulated by the state, and national government.  With some very confusing rules.  
  For  a little over a decade I sold material handling equipment  to Minnesota based utilities.  But each utility company had its own set of rules to deal with and they got really complex if that Utility crossed state lines. 
     
  Utilities  will do what promises to be profitable. That's a real quick math problem until and unless the commutes they service decide to mandate things. 
 

With regard to charging stations in national parks and highway rest stops, I suspect that was to add competitors  to Elon Musk, rather than give him a complete monopoly on recharging.  ( speculation on my part)   I also foresee charging stations in Truck stops and convenience stores. As well as gas stations.  
    I doubt we will need additional fuel powered electricity generating stations.    I don't know how they are coming along with  the proposed mini nuclear generational  plants.  That sounds promising.  But if it's a decade or more away from viability  I suppose  some fuel powered generating plants will need to be invested in. 
    I short I don't see renewables  completely providing all energy in the future.  However I doubt new coal fired plants will be coming on line.  Ignoring any environmental issues they simply aren't  cost competitive with alternatives.  
  

     

In reply to frenchyd :

  post revolutionary war  America was 29.6% in debt to GDP   ($75 million dollars. ) 
  It took until the 1840's to eliminate  that debt and it stayed down until the 1860's civil war when it went up to 31.1%  of GDP   WW1 and we were back to about 40% debt to GDP.  
     WW2  we went to 110%  and by   Then the bump following Vietnam  but by 1980 we were back down to 22%  the lowest it's been.   
Following that the next 12 years brought it up to 78%!  Then through 2000 it went back down to mid 50's  

Since then  it's easy to spot big  tax breaks.   Plus the pandemic of course  and the 7 trillion dollars gained during those years  but remember the major tax cut that preceded that event and then the cost of dealing with that.  Not to mention the million+ deaths  

       But yes incomes do rise in high inflation periods.  Post 1974 (Vietnam)  a nice middle class income was about  $20k  a decade later $40 K was solidly in the middle class.  By 2030 that will be north of $60k   
        In just the last 3 years  my income from driving a school bus part time has gone up to $25/hr from $17/ hr. 

minimum wage you'll have anyone answering your add  is $15/ hr  for the most basic entry level job.  
         

Let's just let Frenchyd keep replying to himself. I think he just might break his tangent off a tangent record. 

tuna55 said:

You know a thread is over when it devolves into Frenchy and Anthony arguing about debt [scratch that, really any subject], no matter what the original intent was.

I wouldn't call it an argument.  And I can tell by this getting any thumbs up, most people here don't get it.  To be an argument, someone would actually have to have a decent rebuttal to anything, which no one does.

Lets do simple math....  some are actually saying the debt isn't bad and 2% interest isn't a lot.  That's a mathematically ridiculous argument.  2% of $30 trillion is.....  $600 billion.  That's the interest to service and maintain the debt.  There are lots of things that could be done with $600 billion to eliminate hunger, fix education (you know basic math), build housing, actually fix infrastructure, add energy capacity to the grid, etc.

Honestly,  it's hard for me to view many of you as serious people once the conversation strays from cars.  I could point you to stickies and locked topics galore.  Most of society today can't even form a basic argument.  People use lots of big words and hand wave real problems away and say it doesn't matter (like $30 trillion in debt), but rarely does anyone actually make a serious argument for or against anything.  I'm sure someone will launch an attack at me soon calling me various names and many will rush to thumbs up them for their awesome skills in argumentation.  
 

Simple logic, patience (yes waiting), and simple math, and seventh grade knowledge of economics can defeat almost any "argument" ever offered here.  
 

It's really cool to be a part of society that doesn't give a rip about economic harm being done to kids that can't vote and haven't even been born yet!  Pardon me for interrupting your celebratory victory lap celebrating of that colossal failure of humanity.  

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

Did you ever think that maybe people come here for casual conversation and general spit balling? Perhaps we don't care to invest much energy in serious conversations about the wider world outside of the GRM.

I supervise between 80-100 million in annual government spending and at the end of the day I don't care to discuss it at length.

Read this is a nice place to escape to.

Ooops! Came here to say I drove my first EV as a rental the last 20 hours. Must have misread the topic......

In reply to itsarebuild :

I have a Tesla 3 as a rental car right now. Hertz must have just recently gotten a fleet of them, they are priced very low- like less than the economy cars. Verdict is that they're awesome as a rental car, especially for city driving. The "fuel option" to bring it back without charging it first is $35, which seems pretty reasonable to me. I think they will be my go-to option for rental cars from this point forward. The only real complaint I have is lack of CarPlay. 

itsarebuild said:

Ooops! Came here to say I drove my first EV as a rental the last 20 hours. Must have misread the topic......

That's on you for assuming that anything past page 11 isn't going to be about something entirely unrelated.

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to itsarebuild :

I have a Tesla 3 as a rental car right now. Hertz must have just recently gotten a fleet of them, they are priced very low- like less than the economy cars. Verdict is that they're awesome as a rental car, especially for city driving. The "fuel option" to bring it back without charging it first is $35, which seems pretty reasonable to me. I think they will be my go-to option for rental cars from this point forward. The only real complaint I have is lack of CarPlay. 

I dont understand why they dont have CarPlay.  Does not make much sense.

The "fuel option" is weird.  You don't use gas, but you get to spend like you do

ProDarwin said:

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to itsarebuild :

I have a Tesla 3 as a rental car right now. Hertz must have just recently gotten a fleet of them, they are priced very low- like less than the economy cars. Verdict is that they're awesome as a rental car, especially for city driving. The "fuel option" to bring it back without charging it first is $35, which seems pretty reasonable to me. I think they will be my go-to option for rental cars from this point forward. The only real complaint I have is lack of CarPlay. 

I dont understand why they dont have CarPlay.  Does not make much sense.

The "fuel option" is weird.  You don't use gas, but you get to spend like you do

Fuel option is another profit center for the rental company.