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In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
No I don't like ICE. If you weren't busy downvoting things you didn't like because it hurts your fee fees and read what I typed, you'd see I already stated in the end it will be EVs. I also said it will take time and technology to get there. Stiffling free speech won't get the job done.
In the end, this really comes down to the simple math of efficiency. The most efficient ICE engines have an efficiency around 30%. These are not the engines that we enthusiasts enjoy, they are the ubiquitous 2.0L 4 cylinder turbo popular in the CUVs everyone says they hate, but sell in the highest numbers. The efficiency of a modern Tesla is near 90%, but the energy must come from somewhere. I'm going to ignore coal because it is almost dead. The efficiency of natural gas power plants is somewhere around 80%. The simple math says that the centralized power plant running at 70-80% efficiency powering vehicles that transform 90% of the power they consume into power at the wheels of the vehicle is significantly more efficient than 30% efficient power plants in every vehicle that is in use today.
At the core, that efficiency is why EVs will win in the long run. The average person drives 40 miles a day and most EVs available today can provide that. The future is here, right now, for the vast majority of consumers. To me this is actually great for ICE vehicles. I loathe the 2.0L turbo 4 with that make peak power at 5k that are omnipresent today. The EV driving experience is so much better than those abysmal engines. Let's save the fun engines, the ones that are 20% efficient or less. The 911 GT3 engine, the Voodoo mustang, every flat crank Ferrari... let's use real gas and synthetic gas in those. Use the electrons for the drives we have to make anyway, the shuttling the kids to practice, the commute to work. Use the real and synth gas for the early morning mountain runs in the cars we drive for the fun, not the commute.
Internal combustion cannot come anywhere near the efficiency of BEVs. Neither can hydrogen fuel cells that can barely better the ICE competition. Any talk track on the subject of EVs that doesn't compare efficiency of the platforms, is just a distraction, or intentional obfuscation of reality. Does anyone really believe that 'wokeness' is driving Ford, GM, VAG etc to step outside their comfort zone and go all in on EVs? Anyone think the state of California and the EV mandate that bans ICE in 2035 but allows Hybrids is driving the manufacturers into EVs? Tesla has proven that EVs are a viable product. The efficiency advantage is the extinction event for most internal combustion. It's why EVs powered by coal generated electricty are still more efficient than gasoline engines.
This post has received too many downvotes to be displayed.
Okay let's try to reach some of you shiny happies out there. Let's start at the end. Sadly, this will be long.
Why do I tell you the climate crisis is mostly false (proof later). I do it because I care about my kids, their kids and all future generations. I care about your kids, your grandkids, their kids etc. I want them to live in a great place and have power, food, transportation, education, time for family friends, good communication, and health.
Now let's clear up some facts. Society is degrading and degrading fast. I've said education is failing in our country and provided proof on this forum. Some of you cried over that, but literacy rates are declining and fast. I've said cities aren't safe. Well crime is rising fast. The cost of education is rising and the quality of education is falling. Food costs, energy costs, transportation, shelter, it's all going up while wages are not growing. Who does this hurt most? My kids, your kids, their kids and all future generations. It's why I will cut you off to your face, if you ever say any of this is about the kids. It's not. Almost every societal decision is made by a very small group for what benefits them most and benefits them most now. One of you already alluded to this in a reply to me trying to back climate change as a major issue. The opposite is actually true, which we will get to.
Now let's get to another important issue. Free speech and open communication. You'll notice I didn't say communication you like. I don't care if you like it and you shouldn't either. If I'm wrong, prove it, and I will gladly acknowledge it. This is a societal problem. We have mass censorship, bans, we have biased news, we have factcheckers (which testified under oath they are just opinion writers; seriously that was their legal defense), and we have a large population of people that do not think critically (education again).
So ideally we would have a face to face conversation about issues that we differ on. You can see facial expressions, body language, hear voice inflections, etc. On the internet you can't do that. If you read something that hurts your feelings, you ban it, downvote it, or run to a safe space. You can't do those things in person. In person, you have to attempt to have a rational discussion like people. On the internet that just isn't allowed anymore (we'lll get to why and who controls that too).
Now let's talk about people. There are cold, calculating, logical, good people that see things for what they are. Most of them have given up in this day and age. I could give you a list of them by name on this forum quickly. Most of them are afraid to say anything and question anything because they get shouted down by the middle. The middle is the largest group. You all have a glorious name for them; shiny happy people. When it comes to the reality of the world most of you are shiny happies. It's not terrible, it doesn't make you bad people, but it does make it so bad people can take advantage of you. That is what I'd like to prevent. Why? Kids.... the kids. They deserve a better world not a worse one. Now there are bad people. Bad people only care about themselves as was stated above. They evaluate everything in life only wanting what benefits them. And even worse there are evil people. Evil people will destroy their fellow man and the planet to get more power and more money and they do not care about anything or anyone. That's the world we live in. Sadly as time goes on these ratios change. As the ratios change one side gets their message out better. Now, let's get one things straight, there are no perfect people. I'm not perfect. I could be wrong about everything but recent and ancient history says I'm probably not. If I'm wrong, don't complain about it, don't try to cancel me, don't downvote it because I'm a big meanie, prove it. That's a challenge in case you haven't figured it out. Are you up to it?
Now that there is some background, let's talk about garden variety scams. You know the you need to send me a code on this website and put your CC information in here now or you won't get this cool car deal on craigslist type. Well some shiny happy people fall for those scams. They just don't see it. Almost everyone here sees those are scams and tries to help others. That's good. The people running the scams are bad. They are theives, liars and actual real criminals. They shoud be punished.
So how does a scam work? Well a scam always has the same basic flavor. You need to do this right away, or else.... that's it. That's how a scam works. It's not fancy. It's not sophisticated and it's as old as bad people. Or else you won't get the millions the Nigerian prince wants to send you..... or you will get your bank account locked.... or you won't get this special deal.... or.... it's all pretty much the same.
So using simple logic, history, and factual events, how do I know climate change is a big scam. Well let's step back in time. Let's go way way way back.... to the 90s. Yah real far huh? In the 90s there was this guy Al Gore who predicted that if we didn't do X right now, by Z time the entire planet would die and everyone on it. We'd have famine, droughts, the ice caps would melt, land would be submerged, the atmosphere would fail, oceans would boil..... well the fact is Z time has passed and NONE of it happened. Zero. Zip. Nada. What did happen? Well Mr. Al Gore got rich, insanely rich. He made millions off of his predictions. Others made millions too! You and I didn't. We got less. Yes Al Gore is at best, a bad person. Greta Thunberg's parents are bad people. They are taking advantage of their child to enrich themselves and fear mongering and making predictions that won't come true. What special skill did I employ to realize this? I know some of you have asserted I'm smarter. I assure you, I am not. All I did was live and observe. That's it. I know everything Al Gore says is a lie because I watched and waited. Al Gore is a liar and he is doing it to get rich.
Guess what? Others are running the same scam and it's working! Right now! If you don't convert to EVs immediately or very very soon, the planet will die! You see the pattern of the scam? You have to do X right away or bad thing Z is going to happen.... give me money and I can stop it! That's the scam. Most scams are just like this. You want a list of scams your gov't has run on the past few generations? I can list them.
The war on poverty. Poverty won, and so did the politicians. They posed for pictures, made grandiose promises, increased taxes, passed laws, and they got rich (all for the greater good). See a pattern yet? Poverty is horrific in this country. I can show you, physically. Come to my house. We can take a 6 hour tour of the south, meet some great people, have great food, but I can show you real poverty. Most of you that downvote me probably have never seen it.
Need another example. The war on drugs! Drugs won again. The pattern is identical. Taxes up, photos, speeches, promises, laws, and the politician class got more money and more power. Fentanyl and abuse of prescription drugs makes the drugs of the 80s and 90s look like a trip to Disney by comparison. We can see the effects of this on our tour for poverty. Come to my house, I can show you. It will be scary if we do this part, and we could even be killed in the mayhem just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Sound fun? I typically avoid things like this. I don't want this for kids, their kids or any future generations. The evil people don't care. The bad ones don't care either. Most of the people in the middle (shiny happy) trust the evil and bad people are actually going to fix this one..... they won't.
Want to do hunger next? We could it's equally painful. The pattern is identical.
War? Someone mentioned the Ukraine. You know who is dying? Ukranians, people in the middle and good people. You know who is getting rich and gaining power? Bad and evil people. You know who is paying for it all? Our kids, grandkids, their kids.... future generations.
You want to know how I know climate change is a giant scam. It's simple. The same people that promised to end poverty, end hunger, win the war on drugs, win the war against terror are in fact the same ones telling us all the climate crisis is real. The same two generations have been running things for the past 50 years and all of this is happening right in front of our faces. They fly around on jets, buy beach front properties and have CO2 and carbon footprints larger than the entire population of this forum combined. They are lying and I know it. If they were worrid about the people and planet they'd walk or bike everywhere. You should know it too. It's just as plain as the pylons I hit everytime I autocross. It's obvious to anyone looking. All you have to do is look and watch. Stop listening to what they say and look! It's that simple. Learn to believe what you see. Stop believing the illuminated tube in your home. It is the very thing that Orwell wrote about.
So how do I know this is bad, dangerous and will affect future generations and harm the kids? Seriously, people believing these lies harms society. Buying into this lie causes real harm to families, communities and society as a whole. Are you ready for the evidence? It's simple. We all have access to it and can see it in real time. Evidence = venezuela and Cuba. Do you want that for your kids, my kids, yourself, and future generations? That is what bad and evil people do. That's what happens when enough people believe it or just look the other way.
Our country is $30 trillion dollars in debt. We are barely paying interest on it. Our kids, grandkids and future generations are saddled with that debt. They will pay it either in economic gains or blood. That money is owed to the bad and evil that want to control everything for their own benefit. They will collect unless we start working together to stop them. It is already harming current generations. The millennials and gen Z have large student debt, poorer quality jobs, poorer paying jobs, broken homes more often, worse education, and other problems. These generations are not the problem. The older generations created or exacerbated these problems. Supporting the lies and broken promises of evil and bad people only harms these generations more. At the current rate, future generations will be even worse off.
So how do I know evil and bad people run things? They write books stating their plans. They use their wealth to control information, censor anyone pointing a finger at them, they use their wealth to fund science, politics, business, and control education. They don't spend their wealth on anything that doesn't benefit them. They never do it out of kindness unless they are good people. The ratio of good / bad wealthy people today is worse than it has ever been. The sad fact is bad and evil pay better.
How do you identify these people? It's easy. Look at the fruits of their labor. They contribute zilch and consume more than the members of this forum combined and then feed you lies so you won't question it. I can name two politicians that went from middle class to millionaires and have never won an election. How'd they do that? You should find out for yourself. I can name many politicians on all sides that have gone from middle class to millionaire and in some cases billionaire while earning an upper middle class salary. How'd they do that? That's a good question and you should look into it. These people are only in it for themselves and anything they say should be suspect. What about the media and Hollywood. These people care more about their access to power and wealth then they care about you. They will lie to you to ensure they make a bit more than the upper middle class to protect their position in society. The last real mainstream newsworthy story done in this country was when 60 minutes exposed Big Tobacco. In today's world RJ Reynolds would just buy so much ad time on the networks no one would dare say anything against them. They buy so much ad space on social media, social media would silence anyone speaking out against them. Are you starting to see a pattern yet?
Reality, you can't mix science, politics and business. It always ends up being just politics and business. Science requires reflection, re-evaluation, experimentation, and repeats. Politics and business drive towards one goal and only one goal: power and wealth respectively. Science must be independent of that or it is not science. "Climate change" is not science. The most widely published climate scientist in the world is someone you have never heard of. Why is that? You should look into it. I hate Joe Rogan. He is the fear factor idiot. He has the largest audience on the planet now too ( yah it's that bad). But did you see his two episodes on climate change? The fear mongering climate scientist refused to debate the one questioning the data. That's telling. Questioning the data is science! Saying the "science is settled" is not science. In fact it is the antithesis of the scientific method.
One side on almost all issues today refuses to debate. Anyone who refuses to debate to defend their position is a liar and should not be trusted. They are protecting the power and wealth and do not want it to be challenged in any way for the public to see.
So yes, EVs are the future. The future will get here faster and more efficiently if people stop following the bad and evil people. The future is going to be more painful if people keep following bad and evil people or simply turn a blind eye. 2% slavery brought Cobalt is okay? No that's supporting evil and bad people. That is always wrong.
Now do you want to know why renewable energy cannot sustain a power grid? I can explain that too in one paragraph. Do you want to have a real discussion that oil and gas aren't completely evil even if oil company execs are evil? Do you want to talk about how the world gets from the current situation to a better one? Would you like to be a part of the solution? Together this forum could be the driving force to energy security and independence for this country at least and maybe the planet. Or we can just continue this BS, downvoting, banning, censoring and lying about reality. I'll be honest. I'm getting really close to not caring at all anymore. The world is turning to crap and I sure can't change it alone. I'm getting old and I have a lot of good wines aged. I have a lot of hobbies. I've thought of ways I can help society in my later years, but I'm also half inclined to say F it and watch it all go to hell in a drunken stupor too.
If you've made it this far, do yourself a favor. Read a book. It's called "The psychology of the crowd." It was written around the time of the French Revolution. This book is how the evil and bad people control the narrative and flow of information. The internet and social media allowed the bad and evil people to turn the entire world into one large crowd. Crowds can do evil things to fellow man that no one would ever do alone (look at the riots in inner cities as an example). The use these tactics to whip up the crowd of the internet and social media against anyone that might shine a light on their evil. It's why I don't cave when you do it to me. I know exactly what it is and recognize it. I won't ever cave to lies and evil. I might get to the point where I don't give a crap anymore though. When the people that know and can see the lies get to this point, things will be very bad. Someone said in this topic they "unleashed the lions." Well that's not really true. There are very few lions in humanity. There are lots of hyenas and wolves (bad and evil people). There are even buzzards. There are mostly sheep, cows, goats and other non-sided farm animals. And then there are very, very few sheep dogs out there. The hyenas and wolves hate the sheep dogs. They aren't worries about lions at all.
I'm just some average guy living in flyover country that wants the future to be better. I'm sorry I can see BS and lies for what they are, but I can't turn it off. My wife hates it too. She tells me to my face that she hates it when I'm right about things like this. I actually hate it too. I'd rather be shiny and happy. It's easier. Trust me knowing what is really happening in front of our eyes brings me no joy. Watching people hope for the best and believe liars and evil people brings me no joy. If banning or censoring or downvoting me for it brings you joy, rock on I guess. I envy you your shiny happiness.
The climate change hoax is real. For crying out loud they had to rename it because too many people were looking at the data. It's being run by the same people that lost the wars on poverty, drugs, racism, human rights, war on terror and all the other ills of the world. They simply leverage each of these man made crisis' to enrch and empower themselves. You can stop them, but it takes all of you working together. I did my part. I tried to warn you. I don't want to be the leader. I will help however I can, but like an alcholic the first step is to admit there is a problem.
"
i ain't reading all that
i'm happy for you tho
or sorry that happened
mattm said:In the end, this really comes down to the simple math of efficiency. The most efficient ICE engines have an efficiency around 30%. These are not the engines that we enthusiasts enjoy, they are the ubiquitous 2.0L 4 cylinder turbo popular in the CUVs everyone says they hate, but sell in the highest numbers. The efficiency of a modern Tesla is near 90%, but the energy must come from somewhere. I'm going to ignore coal because it is almost dead. The efficiency of natural gas power plants is somewhere around 80%. The simple math says that the centralized power plant running at 70-80% efficiency powering vehicles that transform 90% of the power they consume into power at the wheels of the vehicle is significantly more efficient than 30% efficient power plants in every vehicle that is in use today.
At the core, that efficiency is why EVs will win in the long run. The average person drives 40 miles a day and most EVs available today can provide that. The future is here, right now, for the vast majority of consumers. To me this is actually great for ICE vehicles. I loathe the 2.0L turbo 4 with that make peak power at 5k that are omnipresent today. The EV driving experience is so much better than those abysmal engines. Let's save the fun engines, the ones that are 20% efficient or less. The 911 GT3 engine, the Voodoo mustang, every flat crank Ferrari... let's use real gas and synthetic gas in those. Use the electrons for the drives we have to make anyway, the shuttling the kids to practice, the commute to work. Use the real and synth gas for the early morning mountain runs in the cars we drive for the fun, not the commute.
Internal combustion cannot come anywhere near the efficiency of BEVs. Neither can hydrogen fuel cells that can barely better the ICE competition. Any talk track on the subject of EVs that doesn't compare efficiency of the platforms, is just a distraction, or intentional obfuscation of reality. Does anyone really believe that 'wokeness' is driving Ford, GM, VAG etc to step outside their comfort zone and go all in on EVs? Anyone think the state of California and the EV mandate that bans ICE in 2035 but allows Hybrids is driving the manufacturers into EVs? Tesla has proven that EVs are a viable product. The efficiency advantage is the extinction event for most internal combustion. It's why EVs powered by coal generated electricty are still more efficient than gasoline engines.
You have it right. It's not about politics. Or the survival of the oil companies. Pure and simple it's survival of the middle class. We need efficient vehicles. Careful about our money and time.
Time because we only have so much to live our lives. And wasting time to go to the gas station isn't a smart use of our time. Nor is going to the dealership for an oil change. Brake job etc.
Then there is the money. A few hundred a year for electricity or a few thousand for gasoline. That ICE is going to use around $30,000 worth of gasoline in its life time While that EV is going to use about $6000 ( and the smart ones will put solar or wind up and fix those costs while inflation will increase both gas and electricity accordingly.
In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :
For everyone who said TLDR, my [hopefully unbiased reading of] AGS' point is that the same ppl who increased govt power/reach and taxes to fight other causes that failed to produce results now rally around this one too, so the cause itself should be suspect.
This thread should've ended after Curtis pointed out that Model As and Ts are still running and driving and haven't been replaced. The EV is just another- frequently better!- tool in the toolbox. Screaming about it is like screaming about wrenches, but SOMEHOW crusty sock culture-warriors still fall back to it like some kind of distraction.
P3PPY said:In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :
For everyone who said TLDR, my [hopefully unbiased reading of] AGS' point is that the same ppl who increased govt power/reach and taxes to fight other causes that failed to produce results now rally around this one too, so the cause itself should be suspect.
Oh, so it's part of the classic "All politicians are lazy/corrupt/stupid/insane so why bother" speech that ALSO fails to address what that says about the society or the established power structure? I always hate those, they always try to sound "enlightened" because of their apathy or despair about the situation because it keeps them from needing to do anything about it. They really oughta pull themselves up by the bootstraps and get to work
Fueled by Caffeine said:Is that the grm version of time cube?
Im dying here.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:frenchyd said:So if the Prius is too small to run continuously how big would we need to go to tow the garage effectively?
I know you can pee in world record time. But if you had a wife and children that 3 minute stop turns into 20 minutes.I don't know what the minimum weight is for a generator of those specs, but it seems likely to me that Generac has thought about it a bit. I dug a bit more on their site and found the spec sheet for that generator without the trailer (https://legacy.genconnect.generac.com/Media/vwDoc.axd?d=a9e9199d-4035-46f7-8452-2d210ed366d5), looks like the bare generator without a trailer chassis, fuel tank, or any noise damping is 2500 pounds. It's probably got a monster cooling system, 80 hp cars aren't generally expected to make full power without 50+ mph air flowing over them. If you're willing to give up the idea of running the generator in the parking lot then a typical pickup cooling system should work instead. There might also be some weight to save on the electrical side of things, since you're going to want DC instead of the precision AC waveform that a $30K generator is probably expected to put out. I have no idea how much that would save though.
As for my wife and kids, they aren't particularly interested in going to the track with me. :)
How much of your driving time is commuting. How much is going to distant race tracks pulling the garage with you? 90-95% commuting?
So you'll buy a $70,000 truck that averages 15 mpg For that less than 5% of your life?
Spend $3000 traveling 12,000 miles when you could do it for $300?
Then the time thief a 10 minute gas stop is 40 stops so over 6 hours at the gas station and add another 2 hours for oil changes. That's a whole working day!! Your truck gets from you. Every 12,000 miles.
I'll bet you could plug your car in and unplug it inside a minute. That way you leave your house with a full "tank" every single day.
frenchyd said:How much of your driving time is commuting. How much is going to distant race tracks pulling the garage with you? 90-95% commuting?
Huh? I don't commute in my truck, it's a dedicated tow vehicle. Why would I want to drive it to work? Even if it was an EV it's still big and a PITA to park anywhere.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:frenchyd said:How much of your driving time is commuting. How much is going to distant race tracks pulling the garage with you? 90-95% commuting?
Huh? I don't commute in my truck, it's a dedicated tow vehicle. Why would I want to drive it to work? Even if it was an EV it's still big and a PITA to park anywhere.
In my mind, that's the right way to use most trucks. But a large portion of people that own trucks don't use them like that. I see a shocking number of trucks where the tailgate has probably been opened a handful of times, it's never towed anything, etc. as it's just a 1 - 2 person commuter vehicle, but they just wanted a truck for whatever reason.
Or you get the people that can't stand the idea of owning an "old" vehicle or buying one used, so they drive the truck that's used to tow their boat around as a daily because they weren't going to buy a shiny new truck *and* a shiny new car.
In reply to rslifkin :
Maybe they only want to own / maintain / insure one vehicle so they buy something that handles all their needs in one package.
ShawnG said:In reply to rslifkin :
Maybe they only want to own / maintain / insure one vehicle so they buy something that handles all their needs in one package.
That's a factor too. But many of them end up significantly compromising 90% of their needs because of that simplicity or the other factors mentioned.
Another thing I've noticed around here is that with the whole CUV craze, people are now frequently of the opinion that "cars" are bad in snow and basically useless, so you need a truck or SUV of some kind. And many people have also become convinced that 4wd is basically a requirement if you can afford it (yet many of them would never consider buying snow tires).
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:frenchyd said:How much of your driving time is commuting. How much is going to distant race tracks pulling the garage with you? 90-95% commuting?
Huh? I don't commute in my truck, it's a dedicated tow vehicle. Why would I want to drive it to work? Even if it was an EV it's still big and a PITA to park anywhere.
Thank you. Trucks work. That's what mine does. Then I assume you have a commuter car? Is it EV?
Besides hauling cars around and all the other chores. I make mine commute. I'm about a year and 1/2 from complete retirement. So the wife's Honda will be the new EV. . That's why a regular cab, short bed. The Wifes's Honda is domestic work. Groceries, appointments, visiting family and friends. Actuarial has both of us taking a dirt nap inside 15 years. Life of a car is about 20 years. So the EV should last us well.
frenchyd said:Then I assume you have a commuter car? Is it EV?
I have 5 or 6 cars, none of them are EVs. My DD is an Audi S6, and if I had to replace it I would consider an EV. I don't know if I'd pull the trigger on one or not -- none of the EVs currently on the market are quite what I want. Of course, none of the gas engine cars currently on the market are quite what I want either. That's OK, the Audi only has 43K on it so I have no plans to replace it soon.
I read it all. I'll put it in synopsis. Politicians lie about some things, therefore they're definitely lying about global warming, even though global warming isn't researched by politicians. Nearly all global scientists who studied it say it's real, but because Greta Thunberg is making money it has to be fake.
It's a huge jump to conclusions without sources to back it up and it is counter to what 98% of the world's most intelligent environmental minds with multiple doctorates have studied for 60 years, but surely AGS must have more science to back it up other than "remember Al Gore," and I'll read it with care if he provides it.
Anthony, I respect your opinion, and your right to share it under the constitution, but A) this is a private, globally-accessed website with its own rules, not the street corner in DC or the US Senate floor, so the constitution doesn't apply here. and B) we don't have to tolerate your caustic words. You're not going to change anyone's mind just like we won't change yours. I suggest we just stick to the topic and maybe if you stopped effectively calling us idiot sheep we can have a positive debate. If you were sitting right beside me, we'd be sharing a beverage and talking car stories. We might disagree on things, but it doesn't make me think less of you. This isn't about putting others down, we're just having a chat about EVs and ICEs. Right now it's as if you're trying to tell us that 1+1=3 despite thousands of years of the finest mathematical brains in history saying it never did and never will. Dismissing scientific theory isn't something you just do with "I did my own research."
Also, for the record, I can't recall a single time I ever downvoted anyone's post. Not here, not on any platform, ever. I will gladly upvote something that benefits the conversation, but downvoting is just punitive and doesn't help my own personal participation so I choose not to do it.
Come to the table, bud. We have cookies. :)
I really want to keep out of this argument, but it's really interesting that the data that people only need a basic commuter car is still being used as a reason for consumption of vehicles.
Basic commuter cars have been available for decades. How many two seat cars that get really good economy can you think of? Or even super compact 4 seat cars of the same?
And when have those ever come close to being the sales leader?
Consumers buy what they think they need- which is why the 4 seat sedan has historically been the top selling car, and now the medium SUV has taken over that slot. Or why the pick up has dominated new vehicle sales overall for decades. While I've not done the math, I would wager that the year that sold the most "commuter centric" cars- the sum of all of those cars was not the same as just one model of pick up trucks.
There's no way that consumers will ever buy "commuter cars" in large enough numbers for them to be the significant market. The best you will get is a sports car that doubles as a commuter car in terms of popularity over the long run (see the Miata). And that will never, ever be mandated.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
No I don't like ICE. If you weren't busy downvoting things you didn't like because it hurts your fee fees and read what I typed, you'd see I already stated in the end it will be EVs. I also said it will take time and technology to get there. Stiffling free speech won't get the job done.
It says a lot about you and your politic, that this is how you respond to a friend who merely disagrees with you.
alfadriver said:I really want to keep out of this argument, but it's really interesting that the data that people only need a basic commuter car is still being used as a reason for consumption of vehicles.
Basic commuter cars have been available for decades. How many two seat cars that get really good economy can you think of? Or even super compact 4 seat cars of the same?
And when have those ever come close to being the sales leader?
Consumers buy what they think they need- which is why the 4 seat sedan has historically been the top selling car, and now the medium SUV has taken over that slot. Or why the pick up has dominated new vehicle sales overall for decades. While I've not done the math, I would wager that the year that sold the most "commuter centric" cars- the sum of all of those cars was not the same as just one model of pick up trucks.
There's no way that consumers will ever buy "commuter cars" in large enough numbers for them to be the significant market. The best you will get is a sports car that doubles as a commuter car in terms of popularity over the long run (see the Miata). And that will never, ever be mandated.
+1. It's kind of funny honestly, how history repeats itself with someone new trying to make a perfect commuter only to find out after a few thousand deliveries, that what people need is almost never what they want. Had I really wanted to save the environment, I'd have gotten a job near my home and biked every day to work, which I could do- instead I wanted speed and driving ability and wanted to replace my EVO, and so I found a Model 3 on craiglist.
I see that with Trucks. Yeah, most Americans are kind of full of it when they claim they "need a truck" because "Just in case I tow something/get some furniture/explore america/whatever", but it also shows that we always want to be doing something interesting with our vehicle, not just fartin' around in a commuto-box. I think it's why the whole "Lifestyle vehicle" thing isn't simply a craze or a marketing gimmick; it's actually kinda legit for how so many Americans see trucks and SUVs now.
In reply to alfadriver :
Luckily I can disagree with you without offending you.
An EV as a sedan is also a commuter car. Well it can be a ICE as well but just because of familiarity doesn't make it better.
A quick look at what each demands should convince you of the logic for EV's.
First. Will you agree most buyers focus primarily on costs? Then brand, colors, features? That gearheads are a real minority?
Given that, let's assume you're going to buy a portion of the cars 20 year life? I mean how many cars have you owned for 20+ years? ( me? Only 2)
So 20 years of a Chevy Bolt. $28,000 minus $7500 = $20,500 electricity to run it 20 years? $7,500 $28,000
I'm sorry they stopped production on the Cruse in 2020 but then it was $18,000
plus fuel for 20 years. $28,000+ 18000= $46,000. Plus oil changes. $1500 @50 ea
$47500
Keep a car 10 years? Divide number in 1/2, 5 years divide by 4.
Then there is your time. What's your time worth?
10 minutes to refuel at a gas station? Ok I'll ignore the time it takes to drive there and back. Over the 20 year life of an ICE. That's over 500 trips. 88 hours of your life. Add an hour for each oil change
Compare that to the minute or so it take to plug in and unplug plus you leave home everytime with a full tank
frenchyd said:GM built the Volt and sure it's not a big pickup truck but the concept is valid. Really what would it take Ford to turn the frunk into a generator? And the Lightening to a PHEV?
Ford did make a Plug-in Hybrid (not quite a PHEV) F150 for a while. It has some cool power output features for running tools and such. Really great setup for a lot of contractors.
I've had a Gen 1 Volt for about 8 years now, that I bought when it was a couple years old. I had an 8 year old Mazda3 at the time which was closing in on 100k miles. It was at the point a lot of cars get to where started to need more maintenance than an oil change and set of brake pads. Work had also changed and I divided my time between 2 sites; the farther one being an hour away.
With a nudge from a coworker who owned a Volt, I put together a spreadsheet and discovered that about 80% of my weekly driving would be electric. Work has chargers at both sites which are free for employees and visitors to use, which made half of my electric driving "fuel" free to me. The other electric driving was only 25-33% the cost of driving with the range extender running. It ended up being cheaper to sell the Mazda3 and buy a used Volt; it was about a 3 year payback. And the overall maintenance and repair costs have been quite low.
A true EV with a range extender in a pickup truck (or SUV) format with towing capability would get me into a dealer showroom.
In reply to frenchyd :
I agree with a lot of this but I think the average consumer can't see past the month, maybe the year. John Q average at the dealer isn't even looking at full life cycle cost, just monthly payments. I suspect most can't or won't even add fuel into the monthly bill to see full monthly cost, much less figure out how much electricity would cost.
Not bagging people just my opinion on what people think about. I also think the average customer views cars as toasters, just an appliance that does a task. Can I afford the payment, does it play music, do I like the color? Sold.
Lazy ones will wait to have others explain it to them. But they will pay the cost in the long run.
Notice I didn't get down to insurance and tires, etc. because too many variables.
Car plus energy to run it. EV's win.
Now ordinary car compared to high dollar fancy EV car it gets tougher. Most Tesla's are in that higher dollar number but there are more and more lower cost EV's. I'm sure the long promised cheap Tesla EV will be coming.
Toyota and Honda don't have pure EV's yet and probably wouldn't qualify for the $7500 tax rebate.
Will the first Toyota and Honda's be as good as their ICE's?
In 1950 us humans emitted about 6 billion tons of CO2 world wide which was the major contributor of greenhouse gasses. In 2021 we produce 37 billion tons. I'm no math whizz, but if the average yearly amount is 21.5 billion tons (judging by the straightness of the acceleration line) times 70 years, we have spewed out 1.5 trillion tons of CO2 plus all of the cow burp greenhouse gasses. There is no way that 1.5 trillion tons is not going to make an impact on our planet. My math sure could be suspect, but I don't see any data on the total tonnage. This website has an interactive chart which lists the annual amount released, it would be nice if some statistician could add them all up and give us an answer. Our World In Data.org: Global CO2 emissions from fossil fuels
Don't think that the government can't and won't step in and mandate how and which cars are sold (you buy)? I remember the gas crisis of the 70s and the rush to buy Pintos and Gremlins. I also remember the wonderful 55 mph nation wide speed limit that lasted for 21 year. Several states have already started banning the sale of ICE cars to start sometime in the near future.
The easiest way for the Gooberment to mandate what you drive is to just slap on a $5 per gallon tax on your gasoline.
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