I watched a man die today because of towing/ control

Umm... your odds of going straight are significantly better at any speed of impact if the wheels are pointed straight.

I understand the potential of impact. Doesn't change the fact that it's a darned good idea to keep your wheels straight until you are ready to turn.

Real good, Vigo.

Why don't we all advocate stupid driving practices, since we are all so completely incapable of influencing the cosmos?

I am thoroughly unimpressed with your contribution to this thread. I have more respect for you than that. This is beneath you.

I really don't mind a bit if you don't like it. Is there a reason you feel so compelled to say something?

Several people have noted they have learned something. A professional driver has contributed valuable insight.

You are not helping.

Sorry I'm late to this thread, I was out of town with little to no access to a computer. Also, I didn't have time to read all the posts, so sorry if I'm duplicating something.

Sorry to hear you had to witness that SVreX, and even more sorry for the family of the person killed. I've been in the auto insurance claims business for a long time now. Rear end accidents are probably the most common claim, followed by people turning left in front of someone. There are countless reasons a person rear ends another car. But they almost all come back to one thing...driver error. Almost never is it mechanical. Even if weather is a factor, then that just means the driver was going too fast for conditions or following too close or something like that. It's just common sense, which unfortunately people lack. Even people who are good drivers in general sometimes make a split second bad decision (inattention for example) and it has catastrophic results. Best advice I can give is the simple and basic stuff. Pay attention to everything around you. Drive smart. Anticipate.

I agree that while keeping your wheel straight doesn't gaurantee you won't get shoved one way or another, it certainly give you a better chance. One other suggestion when you're sitting and waiting to turn left...and this is in no way, shape or form implying ANY fault on the poor person who was killed...keep an eye on your rear view mirror. You might be able to see them coming and have some time to react. Doesn't mean you'll avoid the accident, but it can make a big difference. Seen it happen countless times. Again, not putting any blame at all on the driver who was killed, for all I know he may have looked, just giving that suggestion.

Why was I never taught in driver's ed class to keep my wheels straight whilst waiting to turn?

Last night ,on the way to my hockey game, a tool in a Jetta is using the whole width of our lane on a two lane road. I immediately suspect he's texting and back off 250-300 feet. We're the 4th and 5th cars in a line moving at the speed limit. There's a passing zone that might be a quarter of a mile long ,and this idiot pulls out to pass all 3 of the vehicles in front of him. There are at least 4 oncoming vehicles,with their headlights on when he starts the pass, and he doesn't jump the brakes to get back in line, he keeps going !! At least 6 cars, in both lanes head for the shoulders to miss him ! Luckily, no one gets hit, but Mr. Tool picks up speed , I assume to get away from us in his embarrassment , and then runs the light at the freeway and makes an illegal left turn onto I94.He could have caused a head on crash with his stupidity. I was already slowing and heading for the shoulder the instant he started the pass. If I hadn't backed off at the first sign of him texting I would have got caught up in it ,too.Some people shouldn't be allowed to drive.Looking well ahead makes so much sense.Rant over.

Sky_Render wrote: Why was I never taught in driver's ed class to keep my wheels straight whilst waiting to turn?

You didn't have my dad for an instructor.

(He was a high school teacher, and also taught driver's education in my small home town for 35 years. I remember him telling us this.)

I remember from a motorcycle safety class I once took, we were taught to assume the worst of every car around you. Constantly think up the stupidest moves the cars around can make and come up with a plan if the worse does happen. I use this strategy every time I drive/ride no matter what vehicle I operate.

One time, while on vacation in Minnesota, I rented a scooter for the day. Later that night I was riding in the left lane with a truck just right of me. A few blocks from a major intersection I see an SUV edging to make a left into my lane from a side street. I outright assume he doesn't see me and won't even after making the turn. So I grab hold of the bars, turn back to tell my girlfriend 'hold on' and end up riding in the middle of two lanes to squeeze between the car on my right and the guy who just turned into my lane.

I'm really puzzled by the disdain for keeping one's wheels straight.

Nothing we can do can guarantee us safety, but the sum of the best set of habits will, I'm pretty sure, meaningfully improve one's odds of avoiding a smiting from the cosmos. It can happen anyhow, but that's no reason not to take especially the simple/easy steps.

This from someone who's been in three accidents; all three times someone plowed into me from behind, totalling my car; Once while I was waiting to turn left, once while a car two ahead was waiting to turn left, and once when traffic accordioned on the highway. The time I was waiting to turn left, it probably wouldn't have mattered, as there was little traffic. But I'm keeping the habit. I can't think of anything to be gained by cranking in steering while I'm waiting, and it's easy to imagine the problems it can create.

EDIT: And where possible, I simply don't stop and wait to turn left on a motorcycle. I'll just ride around the block or take a different path to make it a right.

slantvaliant wrote:

dean1484 wrote: When waiting to turn if you keep the wheels strait and you are hit you will be pushed with the flow of traffic. Wheels turned you are pushed into on coming traffic.

Were that it were so. Unfortunately, physics and reality get involved. Rarely will such a hit be centered and square. Once a vehicle is hit off center, distorted, and/or bounced, it can wind up almost anywhere. That's part of the problem with braking while towing. Even though the hitch is at the centerline of the vehicle, it does not act at the center of gravity. Under heaving braking a heavy trailer can easily turn the towing vehicle. Edit: Yes, having one's wheels straight might help, but it's no guarantee that you won't wind up in the path of oncoming cars.

You want a guarantee ????? WTF Look. It is about reducing the odds. You can make the same argument about seat belts. There will always be that one person that was tossed from a burning wreck just before it explodes. Had they been waring a seat belt they would have died. Does this mean you should not ware seat belts or that they are irrelevant? I guess by this argument we should not be waring our 5 and 6 point harnessed when racing.

I don't know this to be a fact but I suspect that it is statistically more likely that when you are hit from behind that if your wheels are turned you will get pushed in the direction the wheels are pointed. I would also venture to say that most rear collisions are under 20 mph an these are the ones that will most likely result in the car going in the direction of the wheels. Yes we understand that if you are sitting at a light and are hit by a truck doing 60 all bets are off.

Not turning your wheels until you make the turn has been taught as part of drivers ed for at least 30 years (how long I have been driving) There must be some statistical validity to it!

I will leave you with this comparison.

Two friends of mine were in a bucket truck here in down town Boston. Both waring safty harnesses but only one was actually strapped to the bucket. OSHA requirements are that you have to be strapped in to the bucket. The bucket truck slipped off the shoring that it was on and sent the boom in a whip like manor into a concrete wall (the boom was extended about 120 feet) My friend that was not strapped in jumped 5 stories landing on a roof below and lived (broken legs and pelvis but he is doing very well now all things considered) My other friend was strapped to the bucket and road it into the concrete wall of the adjacent building. He died of severe head trauma and damage to his internal organs. The point to this story is that statistically you are safer when strapped in than not but there are always cases where freak things happen. This does not mean that just because there is a 1 in 10,000 chance that you will actually be hurt worse by not complying with the statistically proven safty measures that you should then not abide by them. This is what I refer to as fools logic. Or arguing from the position of the absurd.

Sorry for getting so high up on my soap box here but this really hits close to home.

44Dwarf wrote: As a kid in the state of MA store were closed on Sundays (old "blue laws") Any way Dad would load us up in what ever car we had at the time take us to the Mall parking lot in the winter and he'd teach us to drive in snow and ice. while the others watched from the snow banks.. I'm the youngest of 8 and there was aways foster kids in the house too so i got to watch lot... I insist on driving most everywhere. Theres only a few people I'm comfy enough to let drive where i will sleep in the car. One is my wife the other is my racing buddy Dave. When it was my turn to get my LIC Dad had a 87 Chevy waggon...Man that was fun sliding on the ice... People can't drive worth a dam today. Mostly cause technology has enabled us to become dumbs ass sons of a bitches.

The first winter that I was with my wife (then girlfriend) I did the same thing. It's a total blast and it's a great learning experience to boot. It really helped build her confidence in the snow.

Hell I still do donuts in empty snow covered lots given the chance.

its sad that police will harass you for trying to learn how to drive properly in a snow covered parking lot.

SVreX, apparently my opinions are bothering you.

I would feel bad if i was in your house, instead of just out in the big bad public internet. Let me assure you, it is easier to listen to my opinion in spite of not wanting me in your forum space, than to get hit and killed by someone you didnt want in your driving space.

For my part, i find it irritating that if we were to offer advice to the deceased on how not to repeat his having been accidentally killed, the communal forum response would be "Shouldnt have had your wheels turned, dont you know they've been teaching that in driver's ed for 30 years?!" But we only care insofar as we are comfortable. If we weren't comfortable telling the guy to his face, we likely wouldnt have offered any of our superior knowledge at all. If the guy was 'merely' crippled for life and posted this story of his own accord, i find it doubtful that many people would be so quick with their internet prescriptions of "coulda, shoulda, woulda" or how they would have acted differently before, in their fantasy version, also going on to do many other things right and living happily ever after. Likewise, of those that ARE comfortable handing out their one-liner internet remedies in the absence of the victim, the full circumstances, and any possible response, i doubt that many of them spend the time to wonder how many of the people they care about would have made the same mistake. And of those who may have wondered, how many have gone out of their way to try to and offer their unsolicited advice to living people, IN PERSON, to try to preclude this one of the billions of ways to die? My guess (and i cant claim it is anything more than that) is something near zero. So for the most part, the posts in a thread like this arent about other people. They're not about educating the masses and making the world a safer place. It is (in my opinion), subconsciously, a venue for people to pat themselves on the back for thinking that something that they think they are doing right is keeping them alive. After all, being alive at the time of post-writing pretty much qualifies us to give advice on not having died yet, right? I mean, someone who has lived for 17 or 33 years has got to have more experience not dieing than, like, a one year old. We should all be asking 97 yr olds for driving advice! They haven't died, they must be experts!

I am not saying this is a useless effort. The people who say they have learned something, will no doubt use it whenever they remember to, and hopefully they do not die during one of the times when they do not remember it, as the dead guy in the story quite possibly knew, and forgot, himself. But what i really hope is that when they (we, all of us) DO die, that we dont spend our last moments thinking "damn, i shouldnt have turned my wheels, especially after all the time i spent reading that one thread!" or "damn, if only i'd gone seeking true driving skill and knowledge on the internet forums, i could have avoided this!" hah!

This is the part of the post where others in the thread have said "rant over" and "sorry for getting so high on my soapbox" without any reprisal, so maybe if it keeps people from coming after me i will do it too and say "End Rant". And i will also throw in the defensive qualifiers "Im not racist, BUT" and "one time when i was drunk", too. Maybe one of them will work.

huh. I have been keeping the wheel strait while waiting to turn left since my dad hollered at me to do so and then explained why when I was 15. I make it a point to politely tell drivers and young drivers in particular why it is a good idea if they do otherwise with me in the car. After reading this I think I'll stick to keeping the wheel strait and maybe be a little more bold about thwarting god's will and pointing out the benefits to friends and family.

Vigo wrote: SVreX, apparently my opinions are bothering you.

Actually, I honestly don't give a E36 M3 about your opinions. They are not bothering me one bit.

It's your attitude. Your cocky, unsympathetic, God's gift to world, I'm better than everyone else and therefore don't owe the world a darned bit of consideration attitude.

And I honestly from the bottom of my heart don't care at all. Not one bit.

It's a level of respect that you have deeply and earnestly earned.

And my honesty is a sin that I, unfortunately, will live with.

The only thing worse than watching a man bleed to death by no fault of his own is watching a man beat others to a bloody pulp for the sport of vainly trying to prove his significance.

Ladies and gentlemen, I am finished with this thread. I will no longer partake.

It is not so much a "rant off", as a choice to mourn silently.

wvumtnbkr wrote: They swooped into my lane and procceded to make a right turn directly in front of me. I almost had the thought of not swerving. it would have ended badly for both of us if I hadn't. Rob R.

Sorry I'm not caught up on the whole thread yet but this hit a nerve. I admit I've had the same thoughts. They don't last long enough to even form words, it's just an emotion - I see some idiot cut me off or pull out onto the road 20m away with me doing 90kmh with the tow rig... I have a flash thought, screw it, gonna leave the foot on the gas pedal.

Reminds me of this Russian minivan cabbie who's so emotionally traumatized by Russian drivers that he now refuses to brake for these people and gets it on camera:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkuK1lK3now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nopkHCWDRq4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn7CuUUpeyM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2u_sVvwlbk

In reply to BigD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn7CuUUpeyM

I have been tempted to do that soooooo many times.

I successfully towed a large enclosed trailer chock full of heavy racing accouterments thru PHL rush hour traffic yesterday... while exhausted from a long weekend of driving and instructing. I lived to tell the tale. It can be done!

My secret, you ask? Avoid hitting things. Especially while travelling at speed.

For the record, Paul, i dont have a problem with you or the fact that you started this thread.

I liked how you put your own comments in the context of NOT knowing everything.

The problem i saw was that for every person who contributed something useful there was another person who was making vast generalizations about how people in 'sooper doodies' all drive badly and how 'everyone' was texting and driving and how people should be punished more severely if the internet peanut gallery thinks they are 'ignorant' and 'i figured out to keep wheels straight in 8 minutes (so anyone who doesnt is fill in this blank)!!' etc.

I am just being nitpicky and responding in kind with other vast generalizations and veiled insults (including some to dead victims of others' mistakes).

I was never trying to attack you or your posts. But i was also not, at that point, trying to call anyone out, thus my vagueness in not narrowing it down and saying it wasnt about you.

I was pretty intent on staying out of this, but I guess that post deserves a response.

I appreciate you taking the time to say that. Your earlier posts had a significantly different accusatory and venomous tone. They pushed me pretty far.

I figured I needed some time away from this forum.

I'm glad I saw your post, and appreciate the redirect. For the record, generalizations don't work online. Actually, they don't work so good in person either.

Needless to say, this event left me pretty emotionally charged. I don't think I have the capacity to sort out veiled insults and generalizations. I chose to let them ride, and not get my panties in a knot. Maybe worth a try?

I understand your disagreements, and recognize that you can be a little opinionated (a problem I'm, sure I don't have ), but I don't think I can sort through the subtleties of veiled anything at this point.

Thanks again for the post.