I'm sure I'm not the first that's asked this question. A what car thread.

So after some thinking I've realized some things. For one, a daily driven project truck makes for both an iffy daily driver and a difficult project. Two, putting a lot of miles on said daily driven project is probably just making more work for me later. Three, I sort of want to get into autocross and after a couple posts in the budget auto-x thread, I went from "Probably a bad idea" to "Eh, maybe" and back to "Dude, you're an idiot, that's one of the worst plans you've ever put together" In the matter of a few hours.

And after that thought process, I decided I should probably look for another vehicle.

So basically, I'm wondering what I should look for to get a daily with a manual trans that I could possibly take to a few autocross events.

Here's a list of the things I've been looking at:

-3rd gen f-body w/305 and t5, apparently mildly difficult to find these days.

-4th gen f-body w/ 3.8 and t5, because they seem to keep showing up cheap in this area and honestly it would probably do most of what I want right now.

-Fox Mustang w/5.0 t5, because if I'm looking at f-bodies and am not a die hard GM guy, this seems like an obvious place to look too.

-SN95 w/5.0 and t5, because when I looked at fox bodies it seems like you want lot of SN95 parts to make them handle or stop.

-1.8 liter NA Miata, because the internet keeps telling me that this is the answer and I noticed everything else I looked at had a T5 in it.

-Civic/Integra, because this seems like one of the more sensible things to look at if I can manage to dig through all the sketchy swaps and cut springs on craigslist to find a decent one.

-1st or 2nd gen Neon, because it's sort of like a Civic if you ignore a few details and its easier to find one that I consider acceptable.

-Saturn SL2, because it's like a Neon but with those cool plastic body panels.

If you actually read all that, you're cool and thanks for letting me waste your time.

If you are going to go the Saturn route, i'd recommend the SC2 coupe. They were successful at road racing back in the day. You can find them cheap too.

What exactly is the difference between the SC and the SL other than one being a sedan and the other coupe? I thought the SC was actually slightly heavier.

I would think the only thing different is the weight and i'm sure its minimal. There are some Saturn experts in here and i'm sure they could chime in better than I can..

If your main requirements are "practical commuter" for just yourself, and autocross, "The answer" (Miata) is a good bet if you fit comfortably in one. They seem somewhat less likely to be riced than a Civic or Integra and also less likely to be for sale because their practical transportation days are over.

If I hypothetically fit comfortably in a 1979 Datsun 280ZX, do you think I'd be ok in a Miata?

I'm not a Saturn expert, but I can help with the nomenclature. Early Saturns came either as a coupe SC, a sedan SL, or as a wagon SW. All of these variants could be had with a single overhead cam engine SC1, SL1, SW1, or with a twin-cam four, SC2, SL2, SW2. They also offered a cheapo version of the sedan called simply the SL. This was a single overhead cam, no passenger-side mirror, no power steering stripper.

IIRC the single overhead cam engines make 110hp and the twin cams make 124hp. The difference is noticeable enough to go with the twin-cam cars, as there isn't really a cost penalty these days.

They all weighed in around 2400 lbs give or take a few.

They are all very easy to service, with dipsticks clearly marked, and everything pretty easy to get to. The manual trans cars have a dipstick to check trans fluid, and the auto trans cars have a twist-off oil filter just like a normal car's crankcase.

The plastic panels are only on the sides--- the roof, trunk and hood are metal and can dent. (except on the wagon-- plastic roof, so no sunroof available ) The plastic panels are great--- until it gets very cold, and they can get brittle and break with fairly slight contact in extremely cold weather.

The interiors got a pretty major upgrade in 95, with the exterior getting an upgrade in 96. So, if you like the older body style, but the newer interior, the 95 models are the way to go. I've always been partial to the 95 SW2, as I like the wedgy look, but prefer the newer interior.

They are all surprisingly fun to drive, nimble, and they get tremendous MPG. The gearbox is gritty, and the interior is kinda cheap and ill-fitting, but otherwise, they are good little machines.

They also did very well in SCCA racing back in the day.

Chadeux wrote: If I hypothetically fit comfortably in a 1979 Datsun 280ZX, do you think I'd be ok in a Miata?

No experience with a 280ZX but I fit in a Miata and I'm 6'3" and 235lbs. And it's by no means a tight fit. My co-worker was shocked to ride in it and find it has more room than the C5/C6 Corvettes he's always working on.

In reply to Joe Gearin:

I was aware on the SC,SL, and SW as well as the 1/2, and where the plastic actually was. A friend of mine has a '96-ish SL1 with a 5 speed. I mentioned the SL2 because that's the best looking of the bunch in my opinion.

In reply to NickD:

If it's actually as much room as a Corvette I'm not worried at all. My concern was mostly being 6' with a long torso and fitting under a roll bar with a helmet. I realized my head actually almost touches the headliner in a Jeep XJ, but the seat is mounted fairly high in an XJ and the body isn't very tall.

In reply to Chadeux:

Yeah, they are surprisingly roomy. With the top up and a helmet on, I do brush some of the top bows, but I usually race with the top down. Or a race seat or lower brackets could fix it as well.

Mazda3 or Protege 5.

Don't neglect the Jeep Cherokee, either.

Oh, and I posted this a few days ago:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/200x-classifieds/rallycross-neon/110305/page1/

Brett_Murphy wrote: Oh, and I posted this a few days ago: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/200x-classifieds/rallycross-neon/110305/page1/

Yeah! Run, don't walk, to buy this car. I was just coming here to suggest it.

Buy the car that suits your daily driving or non-autox needs the most, then take it to an autox event. As I had posted in that autox thread, pretty much any non-SUV will be fine for your first several times autox'ing. You'll have fun in any of them.

All the cars you posted can be fun. I personally would lean toward a Mustang or Miata, but that's just me...between those two models I've had at least 10 of them.

Sadly I'm not actually in the position to buy at this moment. Mostly just gathering notes for later at this point.

+1 on the Saturns, and get the DOHC engine. I've been daily drving them for over 15 years. RELIABLE and cheap and easy to fix. Plus they are reasonably light weight, get good mileage, and spirited to drive. (if you live in the rust belt, crawl under the car and look at the engine cradle/subframe, some are rusting pretty bad there now-a-days / also open the rear doors on the SL model to check the door sill, prone to rust there too due to door/weather stripping coming loose)

I have been keeping my eyes out for a nice 3rd gen F-body 305/T5 car for years now. They are getting a lot harder to find. But if you can find a decent one they can be really good cars. I would look for one of the later TPI models (87 and up maybe??). Easy to spot if the ad shows the car with the hood up.

I would also be considering E30, FC RX-7, and 240SX.

Chadeux wrote: What exactly is the difference between the SC and the SL other than one being a sedan and the other coupe? I thought the SC was actually slightly heavier.

I think, although I could be wrong, that the first generation SC coupe (the one with cool pop up headlights) was a two door, had a shorter wheelbase, and was lighter than the SL. The later SC had (I think) the same wheelbase as the sedan. I've heard these were maybe actually heavier than the 4 door SL. Most of this is taken from the internet so someone correct me if I'm wrong.

If I wanted a fun, more classic/sporty coupe I would be looking for a early SC2. The pre-airbag cars had cool steering wheels! If I wanted the modern safety features and convenience of four doors I'd be looking at 96-97 SL2s.

I don't think the dual cam engine changed between the generations while the single cam did but unless you're only goal is fuel economy you'd want to skip the SOHC.

NickD wrote:

Chadeux wrote: If I hypothetically fit comfortably in a 1979 Datsun 280ZX, do you think I'd be ok in a Miata?

No experience with a 280ZX but I fit in a Miata and I'm 6'3" and 235lbs. And it's by no means a tight fit. My co-worker was shocked to ride in it and find it has more room than the C5/C6 Corvettes he's always working on.

I dunno what that guy is smoking. Having driven S13 240sx, FC RX-7, C5 Z06, and miatas extensively I'd say the Z06 has the most room by far and the miata and 240sx the least. There's also more adjustments that can be made in the C5 out of the box.

I find I fit better in a Miata than a Corvette too, or at least it seems that way. The only real trouble area with the Miata is between the steering wheel and the door.

Chadeux wrote: If it's actually as much room as a Corvette I'm not worried at all. My concern was mostly being 6' with a long torso and fitting under a roll bar with a helmet. I realized my head actually almost touches the headliner in a Jeep XJ, but the seat is mounted fairly high in an XJ and the body isn't very tall.

I'm 6'3 and fit about the same in my DD XJ - head comes just shy of brushing the headliner.

Prior to buying my 4th gen Camaro a couple years back I was looking pretty hard at Miatae (was shopping with a very similar purpose btw - DD/auto x dual purpose weapon.) Until I actually got to test drive one that is. The sun visor and windshield header cut off about the upper 2/3 of my field of vision. Yea, you can do a foamectomy, or replace with a racing seat, but I felt it was just too cramped for a DD for me. Still plan to own one someday, as I think it would be fine as a weekend car with some kind of mod to lower the seating position, but they're not anywhere close to the same size as a 'Vette on the inside.

I would start with rear wheel drive. Then look at practical daily use. If milage is an issue I would avoid the V8s but they do have a great bang for the buck. Camaros are great bang for the buck. The gen 3s are cool but the gen 4s are better. The 3.8 with the 5 speed is a great car. It has tons of space inside for things bigger than a golf bag. The gas milage is great and they are very inexpensive. I loved mine. There will be a lot of folks that disagree. I have worked at autocross events queuing cars for release and could hear a couple of the Miata guys trash talking about an f body that spun. When I looked at the times at the end of the day the guy's best run was better than either of the guys that were bad mouthing the car and better than about half of the other Miatas (not my buddy's mazdaspeed). I did better than those two guys and a good portion of the Miatas, in a G8 with all season tires. Get something YOU are comfortable in and is useful for more than one task, unless it is a dedicated tool for track days.

If we focus more on the DD side and use the "anything but an SUV" theory for the autocross side. Also ignore that I specifically said manual trans. What about a GM b-body or panther? I've had this idea floating around in my head for a full size V8 sedan being turned into a red pig-ish thing for a while now.

Do you need a backseat? Are you smaller than 6'2" and 230ish? Miata. If you need a back seat may I reccomend an e36 or even e46 over an e30. Don't get me wrong I love e30s but they are getting long in the tooth, all the good ones people want too much money for and all the other people still want too much for a ratted out pos. E36 would get you a newer car with parts that aren't that expensive and a better interior.

The question is, is 110whp enough for you? Or are you the "have to have more, cars to slow" type? I've driven Miatas for 8 years and there's a reason they are "the answer" but unfortunately they aren't for everyone.

Edit: just saw your Panther bit, good idea, there's lots of parts out there to make them actually handle decent, already have a better rear suspension design than a mustan and you can get a pretty damn newish p71 for $2,000 or so. I've also seen a few people swap mustang manual trans into them which would make them way more fun.