Import CAM, sound fun to you? Write a letter to the SEB!

Would the cars NEED to be swapped? Or could it be just an import that is built just a little bit more than the law will allow?

I'd be interested to see how the class pans out compared to street prepared, street mod and tire classes. I do think the classing system is overly complex for what it needs to be already, and there are already so many classes it is a little ridiculous. My region (Milwaukee) usually pulls around 100 cars an event and most of the classes only have a few cars each. I was the only car in CSP for most events. We are a very "street", "street mod" and "tire limited" heavy region.

spacecadet said:

Duke said:

And the class dissolution just gets weaker and weaker...

I don't agree, this allows a new idea the opportunity to see the light of day without waiting on changes to the current classes. Especially if import cam stays a provisional class.

People were pushing for LS swaps and other non OE block swaps in Street mod more than a decade ago. And it wasn't until just recently that those became kosher. So forgive me if people wanting to go outside the old guard is a more effective way to try something new.

SCCA is a member service organization. If there's a group of the membership not being served or a ability to bring in new members with an opportunity like this. They why would the club not pursue it?

I just find the old complaint about we have too many classes to be ridiculous.

 

 

I think at a local level in most regions, it'll deplete Street Prepared and Street Mod, so it won't really be a new class as much as a shifting of a lot of cars to a class they are better suited for. 90% of non-Nationals events I go to, most of the cars in Street Mod and Street Prepared are running 200tw tires and just ended up there due to other mods. I've even known guys who went away from using slicks and just took the hit to their competitiveness because slicks were too expensive and too much of a hassle, requiring either a tire swap before and after or a truck and trailer. And as I said, I think it'll help with getting new members/keeping people new to the sport. There have been a number of people who started to race with us, then stop after a few events, and I see them at a Cars & Coffee and ask why they don't show up anymore and get told "I got sick of being put in some bullE36 M3 class and getting my ass kicked and my options were either spend a fortune and ruin my car or get a different car."

TheRX7Project said:

Would the cars NEED to be swapped? Or could it be just an import that is built just a little bit more than the law will allow?

I'd be interested to see how the class pans out compared to street prepared, street mod and tire classes. I do think the classing system is overly complex for what it needs to be already, and there are already so many classes it is a little ridiculous. My region (Milwaukee) usually pulls around 100 cars an event and most of the classes only have a few cars each. I was the only car in CSP for most events. We are a very "street", "street mod" and "tire limited" heavy region.

No need to be swapped or boosted. Just modified above what Street Touring allows. So, like CAM, basically run what ya brung as long as its on 200TW tires.

NickD said:

TheRX7Project said:

Would the cars NEED to be swapped? Or could it be just an import that is built just a little bit more than the law will allow?

I'd be interested to see how the class pans out compared to street prepared, street mod and tire classes. I do think the classing system is overly complex for what it needs to be already, and there are already so many classes it is a little ridiculous. My region (Milwaukee) usually pulls around 100 cars an event and most of the classes only have a few cars each. I was the only car in CSP for most events. We are a very "street", "street mod" and "tire limited" heavy region.

No need to be swapped or boosted. Just modified above what Street Touring allows. So, like CAM, basically run what ya brung as long as its on 200TW tires.

I agree with what you said in the comment above, that it would pull people out of SM and SP classes. Honestly one of the things stopping me from boosting my car was that it would put me in SM where I would be seriously outgunned on basically every front.

spacecadet said:

Duke said:

And the class dissolution just gets weaker and weaker...

I don't agree, this allows a new idea the opportunity to see the light of day without waiting on changes to the current classes. Especially if import cam stays a provisional class.

People were pushing for LS swaps and other non OE block swaps in Street mod more than a decade ago. And it wasn't until just recently that those became kosher. So forgive me if people wanting to go outside the old guard is a more effective way to try something new.

SCCA is a member service organization. If there's a group of the membership not being served or a ability to bring in new members with an opportunity like this. They why would the club not pursue it?

I just find the old complaint about we have too many classes to be ridiculous.

Don't we already have a category for more aggressively-prepared cars?

Maybe... PREPARED?

Having 40-something classes spread over 7 categories might make sense when your events never have fewer than 150 cars.  But at a local / regional level, I find it ridiculous.

For most of my events, if every class was represented, I'd have somewhere between 1.5 and 2 cars per class.

Duke said:

spacecadet said:

Duke said:

And the class dissolution just gets weaker and weaker...

I don't agree, this allows a new idea the opportunity to see the light of day without waiting on changes to the current classes. Especially if import cam stays a provisional class.

People were pushing for LS swaps and other non OE block swaps in Street mod more than a decade ago. And it wasn't until just recently that those became kosher. So forgive me if people wanting to go outside the old guard is a more effective way to try something new.

SCCA is a member service organization. If there's a group of the membership not being served or a ability to bring in new members with an opportunity like this. They why would the club not pursue it?

I just find the old complaint about we have too many classes to be ridiculous.

Don't we already have a category for more aggressively-prepared cars?

Maybe... PREPARED?

Having 40-something classes spread over 7 categories might make sense when your events never have fewer than 150 cars.  But at a local / regional level, I find it ridiculous.

For most of my events, if every class was represented, I'd have somewhere between 1.5 and 2 cars per class.

 

Why don't you guys run condensed classing? Our Street guys all compete for a single Street trophy. All our Street Touring and CAM guys compete for an ST trophy. Street Prepared, Street Mod, Prepared and Mod all run for the same trophy. We just use PAX to level the playing field within those classes. It makes for a lot less trophies at the end of the year for, with every group having actual chases for the trophies, instead of a lot of one-ofs.

In reply to Duke

Saying a built car should go to prepared is ignoring the fact that the prepard class rules are limiting in the fact that if you've gotten away from your stock motor in any way you're screwed.

Dusterbd13 is one of those folks forced to run Prepared, and he's pushed into XP with his miata.

And you missed street mod along the way to prepared. But you have interior rules to fight in street mod.

CAM cars should already have had a class in ESP based upon your line of thought. Changing the current classes would be the most ideal route. The problem is, changing the current classes takes a LOT of time. Changes are small and done at a glacial pace.

Introducing a new category allows the current category the opportunity to stand on its own against the new idea.

In reply to NickD :

Ha! I literally struck the condensed classing comment from my own post just now. Glad I'm not the only one to want to say it.

sleepyhead the buffalo said:

spacecadet said:

If you guys want to shoot me a direct messages I can try to compile the "letters" in an email to Raleigh and I can also compile any thoughts into a PDF that I can attach to my letter.Thats the only way I can take what you guys want to say and share with with the SEB.

What kind of time frame are you looking at for sending that off?  DM's submitted by Friday noon EDT?

is time of the essence?  Or do we have a week? Etc.

Take the time you want. I'll send multiple if I have to. But lets set next wed as a first letter hard date.

How is this any different than SM other than street tires and no aero?  

spacecadet said:

In reply to NickD :

Ha! I literally struck the condensed classing comment from my own post just now. Glad I'm not the only one to want to say it.

Because we try to follow SCCA classing for the convenience of our drivers, 90% of whom also run SCCA events and want to stay in their native classing.

For the last few years I've dumped the CAM folks into the sppropriate SM class, but they don't like it.  CAM has shown staying power, so I was planning to add it next year... and now here's a proposal for yet another category that is only subtly different from a bunch of existing categories and classes.

I understand that autocross is a subtle form of violence, but c'mon.  We're talking big heavy things with many many moving parts.  How subtle is it really?

One of the biggest problems with SCCA classing in my opinion is it doesn't cater to the casual enthusiast because it doesn't follow the natural progression of how people modify their cars.

Example: You go buy shiny new X car.  Throw on some $200 lowering springs, new wheels, exhaust and a tune.  The car is basically stock and setup how 95% of "street" cars are run.

 In my opinion this should be in Street class but the lowering springs, wider wheels, exhaust, and tune aren't allowed in Street bumping you to Street Touring.

But, since you're buddy who doesn't know alot about SCCA rules recommended some NT-01's or R888R's because they are grippy and cheap, now you are in a Prepared or Modified class with your "stock" car.

But you can buy a set of $4000 dampers and a sway bar and you're perfectly set for "Street" class.

Patientzero said:

How is this any different than SM other than street tires and no aero?  

As You're someone running CAM, what's different about CAM than saying the exact same thing?

Duke said:

spacecadet said:

In reply to NickD :

Ha! I literally struck the condensed classing comment from my own post just now. Glad I'm not the only one to want to say it.

Because we try to follow SCCA classing for the convenience of our drivers, 90% of whom also run SCCA events and want to stay in their native classing.

For the last few years I've dumped the CAM folks into the sppropriate SM class, but they don't like it.  CAM has shown staying power, so I was planning to add it next year... and now here's a proposal for yet another category that is only subtly different from a bunch of existing categories and classes.

I understand that autocross is a subtle form of violence, but c'mon.  We're talking big heavy things with many many moving parts.  How subtle is it really?

 

As Someone running a region then, my point back to you would be this. Your complaint is about so many classes and people collecting trophies in their small class.

That's ok, those folks are people who show up, if your region had 5 more people come out because of Import CAM, would that not help your region out?

Did any of the CAM participants come out because of CAM or did they compete in other classes before CAM existed?

spacecadet said:

Patientzero said:

How is this any different than SM other than street tires and no aero?  

As You're someone running CAM, what's different about CAM than saying the exact same thing?

My Mustang has a LS3 in it.  No other class allows engine swaps for street car to my knowledge.  If CAM didn't exist I would be running SM and getting my butt handed to me by AWD cars.

NickD said:

Furious_E said:

Aside from a 200TW limit on tires, would this really be that much different than Street Mod, now that cross-brand engine swaps are allowed? 

Not really, but it would at least give cars like mine a PAX that is more competitive. I have a 245whp supercharged Miata that is a lot of fun to autocross, but I don't want to drop $1500 on slicks and make the car unstreetable and have to go buy a truck and trailer. And I'm not the only one, because pretty much every local region I go to, the guys in Street Mod are all running 200tw tires. So, instead, I run 10th in raw time and then get banished to 40th in PAX, which gets really disheartening after a while. It also might help with new member retention. I see a lot of people who are not new to cars but new to autocross show up with a cool turbocharged or engine-swapped Honda and do decent on raw but get DFL on PAX and go "Okay, this sucks" after an event or too and never return. 

I'm in the same boat, running an LS swapped RX7 in Street Mod on street tires because I'm too cheap to buy Hoosiers. Locally, we had maybe 6-8 or so semi-regulars in SSM, only one of whom was running Hoosiers on his built to the hilt Audi TT. Whatever, the rest of us are perfectly content to duke it out with each other for 2nd on 200TW, and it's often a pretty competitive field. I'd much rather have a solid group of 4-8 cars to run against than split that field in two just to make my PAX look a little better. 

Patientzero said:

spacecadet said:

Patientzero said:

How is this any different than SM other than street tires and no aero?  

As You're someone running CAM, what's different about CAM than saying the exact same thing?

My Mustang has a LS3 in it.  No other class allows engine swaps for street car to my knowledge.  If CAM didn't exist I would be running SM and getting my butt handed to me by AWD cars.

You made my point, CAM is just another "scapegoat" avoid SM/SSM and the Hoosiers.

CAM has been a great recruitment tool at a regional level.

Import CAM has the same potential. My point is don't throw stones from glass houses as someone who runs CAM.

You'll never take the Hoosiers from Street Mod, and their rules have their own issues.
 

there's, rough count, ~110pages of the Solo rules I have to read to figure out Street, Street Prepared and Street Modified... not including Section 3.

CAM is 2 pages in it's own Appendix

In reply to spacecadet :

I don't see your point.  Get rid of CAM and have a version of SM on street tires with no aero.  Nothing else needs to change.

Hoosiers aren't the problem, my tires aren't any cheaper and it gets trailered to the track.  The problem for me is running against AWD cars.

Patientzero said:

One of the biggest problems with SCCA classing in my opinion is it doesn't cater to the casual enthusiast because it doesn't follow the natural progression of how people modify their cars.

 

Example: You go buy shiny new X car.  Throw on some $200 lowering springs, new wheels, exhaust and a tune.  The car is basically stock and setup how 95% of "street" cars are run.

 In my opinion this should be in Street class but the lowering springs, wider wheels, exhaust, and tune aren't allowed in Street bumping you to Street Touring.

But, since you're buddy who doesn't know alot about SCCA rules recommended some NT-01's or R888R's because they are grippy and cheap, now you are in a Prepared or Modified class with your "stock" car.

 

But you can buy a set of $4000 dampers and a sway bar and you're perfectly set for "Street" class.

 

VERY much this. The complexity of the classing, I believe, drives away a lot of the younger "tuner" crowd, and maybe even older guys with fun weekend cars. I mean technically my bone stock Sonic is in Street Touring because I put a cone filter intake on it to replace the rotted out rubber factory intake hose (common problem). The car wouldn't even be competitive in Street let alone any sort of Prepared class.

Personal observations

• CAM is an arms race at the national level
• SMS or "CAM for all" or whatever you want to call it, is an arms race at the REGIONAL level

I have played in CAM. I use CAM-S as a yardstick locally. We have a regional SMS, and I use the guys at the top of that class to gauge my performance also. I continue to run my truck in EM because the CAM rules shifted while I was building, and my build became illegal. I run on free tires that are not 200TW which keeps me out of SMS, and I cannot justify the cost of CAM sized 200TW tires. However, both classes contain the types of builds I set my goals on while planning out the truck.

Those who think SMS is the answer to retaining newbies are wearing rose colored glasses. The new guys who get tossed into "wild" classes based on a few mods and never return, are the same guys who will get buried at the bottom of a +15 car SMS class and never come back. We already have a bunch of cars who regularly run SMS, for the funs or because they are under prep for "xxx" class, and I hear the same excuses as any other class; it cost too much to compete or the cars at the top are "ruined"....SMS simply boils down to a better PAX for the guys who don't want to run Hoosiers.

Having said that, I still say go for it. It is a fun group locally, and it makes classing cars during registration much easier.

There should actually just be 3 classes. Stock, meaning stock stock, not even a custom air freshener. Bigbucksrunwhatyabrung, meaning big bucks, run what ya brung, this is where all the rich people can play. And finally, the $2000 class, which should make sense to everyone on this forum. 

If you're in a class with nearly unlimited rules to build anything you want and you're still looking at PAX, you're doing it wrong.

In reply to slowbird :

I like that and can be done with a PAX.

I am intrigued but uneducated....  

As I understand it, the first eligibility requirement of CAM is:

• Must be either a domestic automobile or truck (pick-up or SUV) of front-engine, rear-wheel-drive (FE/RWD) configuration 

So, that leads me to wonder, what is the goal of "import CAM"?  Is it...

• to allow Import vehicles with domestic engines to be allowed to play with the CAM-boys (and girls)
  • So, is this a placed for a Miata stuffed with an LSx to compete with Camaros?  
• or, is this a place for only import vehicles to play with unrestrictive rules on engine
  • So, making this a separate (but equal...ha) place for a Miata stuffed with an LSx?  

Does current CAM allow you to put a Toyota 2JZ into your Camaro (if that is what you wanted)?    Said another way, can you use a non domestic engine in your domestic car?  

Would Import CAM allow the domestic engine in your import car?  Or, is this more intended to be a place for a import car with Import engine like a Nissan 240sx that is stuffed with a Skyline engine?