Import CAM, sound fun to you? Write a letter to the SEB!

Patientzero said:

In reply to spacecadet :

I don't see your point.  Get rid of CAM and have a version of SM on street tires with no aero.

If thats what Import CAM becomes, I'm fine with that. But taking Hoosiers away from SM isn't going to happen.

I'm pretty anti hoosier. 200TW tires aren't perfect, but they can be used as street tires.

You can also get away from the suspension point attachment rules if you get out of the current SM box.
as well as the weight calculations.

Some proposed ideas was separating cars by drive wheels and setting min weights at attainable levels without doing crazy amounts of cutting. Letting interiors stay in and such.

In reply to Patientzero :

So much this. But we are where we are thanks to 60 years of incremental rule complication, which will require 60 years of incremental rule straightening to fix. 
 

John Welsh said:

I am intrigued but uneducated....  

As I understand it, the first eligibility requirement of CAM is:

• Must be either a domestic automobile or truck (pick-up or SUV) of front-engine, rear-wheel-drive (FE/RWD) configuration 

 

So, that leads me to wonder, what is the goal of "import CAM"?  Is it...

• to allow Import vehicles with domestic engines to be allowed to play with the CAM-boys (and girls)
  • So, is this a placed for a Miata stuffed with an LSx to compete with Camaros?  
• or, is this a place for only import vehicles to play with unrestrictive rules on engine
  • So, making this a separate (but equal...ha) place for a Miata stuffed with an LSx?  

Does current CAM allow you to put a Toyota JZ2 into your Camaro (if that is what you wanted)?    Said another way, can you use a non domestic engine in your domestic car?  

Would Import CAM allow the domestic engine in your import car?  Or, is this more intended to be a place for a import car with Import engine like a Nissan 240sx that is stuffed with a Skyline engine?  

In theory you could put a K series/RB26/rotary in a F body and run CAM with their current rules. It just has to be a Domestic car. The Min weights don't give you a lot of incentive to do so. The turbo 4cyl 6th gen camaro the GM team runs is at the min weight for CAMC with almost no mods to save weight.

My hope is for import cam to serve the underserved cars. Wierd modified domestic FWD stuff and the heavier more modern FWD stuff.

Thats my skin in the game so to speak, thats what I'm after.

The SMF cars are neat, but they are totally old crappy E36 M3box hondas with nothing street about them left.

I'd also like to see a Import CAM class that just says, no min weight, must be a production car. Have fun.

So I was hoping that the two Heritage Classic classes from a few year ago would do for imports what CAM originally did for older American cars, especially muscle cars and resto mods.   But it seems to have flopped and people with MGs and Alfas and old Datsun roadsters have to go back to boring marque-specific car shows instead of doing something really fun with their cars.

I'll be writing a letter, but I'll still be advocating for something more like Heritage Classic than a class wide open for expensive and complicated modifications.  As said in other posts, there are already classes for that.  I think the CAM concept is about bringing new people in, not making existing cars more competitive in a different class.  There are so many imports that couldn't even come close to running a good time in HS, so I hope that something can be created to bring them in.

I'm concerned about diluting an import CAM just like I feel CAM is going with its three classes.  I'm in the camp that they just wrecked CAM-T with the newer Mustangs and Camaros--my son Jack's 1967 Falcon wagon was a hugely popular car at the Solo Nats and finished mid-pack.  Now it's going straight to the bottom and I bet some of the other milder, mid-pack muscle cars won't show up anymore, pushing him further to the bottom.  Gumby is right about the arms race.    We can't have the MG and Alfa guys in slightly modded cars getting pushed out by the V8-swapped, huge tire imports from the next arms race. 

In reply to Carl Heideman :

A Foxbody Mustang is already legal in CAM-T.  It's the same car.  A Foxbody didn't even place top three at nationals.  Keith, who won CAM-T at nationals in a pretty basic 68 Camaro is in my class locally.  I've never ran faster than him in my '02 that you're worried is going to destroy the class.  I'm not sure if that makes you feel any better but I think the line of thinking is completely unjustified.

Just wait for Mike Dusold to show up, nobody has a chance.

Patientzero said:

In reply to Carl Heideman

 

Just wait for Mike Dusold to show up, nobody has a chance.

Aint that the truth.

CAM is designed to discourage the stupid build by having no reward for it. There's no national championship jacket at the end of the CAM road..

And I'd expect the same treatment for import CAM.

My hope for these classes is to help us take national solo and shape it to what it becomes in the next 15 years.

I say 15 because I really think it's 10. EV's are coming hard and fast and changing the game.
Battery tech has come a VERY long way in 10 years and i expect even more in the decade to come.

If we allow these classes alongside the current national class structure we can better see how to change national classing over time and allow the hardcore and the casual autocrossers a open and easy ruleset to play in right now.

Hoosiers guarantee a higher barrier of entry by being a not streetable tire at all.

Some people want to play to the defined rules of solo as it is, but CAM has shown there's a different group of people out there too and I KNOW it's there for Imports and other cars as well.

Patientzero said:

In reply to Carl Heideman :

A Foxbody Mustang is already legal in CAM-T.  It's the same car.  A Foxbody didn't even place top three at nationals.  

I don't want to derail this too much, but:  First, you're right, Foxbody's didn't make top three.  But they made 4th-7th.  I'm more of a historian than a hardcore autocrosser, so my dinosaur opinion is that Foxbody's should be in CAM-C and CAM-T should cut off around 1973 or 1976, because that was the end of the historical first musclecar era.  The Foxbody ushered in the next era, along with the newer Camaros, etc.. 

This will get a bit moot as the 2020 rules put Foxbodies up against the New Edge Mustangs and 4th Gen Camaros.

I'm guessing they're classing the cars based on their times at national events more than my historical perspective and the Foxbodies, etc. can't keep up with the other cars in CAM-C, so they're in CAM-T.  It would be dumb to create another CAM class for 1980's and 90's cars that can't compete with the newer cars, so I guess that's the way it's going to be.  But I predict fewer and fewer pre 1973 cars in CAM-T besides full six-figure restomods on huge tires.   I think CAM-T should be early muscle cars, but I think it's going to increasingly be 80's-90's 2nd wave cars.   

So from a racing perspective, this stuff makes sense, but from a "bringing people into the sport" perspective, I'm hoping that someone will put some thought to classing historic cars into historically logical classes.  Anecdotally, people love running the earlier cars and seeing the earlier cars.  They don't have to win, but they need a little bit of a chance for mid-pack or they won't come back to play.

spacecadet said:

My hope is for import cam to serve the underserved cars. Wierd modified domestic FWD stuff and the heavier more modern FWD stuff.

Thats my skin in the game so to speak, thats what I'm after.

The SMF cars are neat, but they are totally old crappy E36 M3box hondas with nothing street about them left.

I'd also like to see a Import CAM class that just says, no min weight, must be a production car. Have fun.

Are you suggesting CAM FWD?  Because I don't see any world where Import cam is not dominated by RWD cars (Miatas).  And CAM FWD would just be dominated by SMF cars running 200TW tires, right?

I don't see CAM truly solving the problem of the way 'local' level enthusiasts modify cars.  Sure its first year or two.  But as soon as people read the rules, modify with that ruleset in mind, etc. its still going to be the same scenario for the local who showed up with drop springs on his car or whatever.  Bottom of whatever class they end up in.

I am 100% for a import CAM, but I don't think it (or any classing changes) are going to solve the newb-attraction issue.  When you boil it down, autocross is for highly competitive technical types with $$ to spare, and TIME to spare.  For anyone short an any of those requirements, it simply doesn't work, no matter the classing.

In reply to ProDarwin :

A floated proposal for import cam included separate classes by drivetrain.

Flawed and existing is better than it not being here.

spacecadet said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

A floated proposal for import cam included separate classes by drivetrain.

FWD Import CAM would be interesting if it were more recent cars.  I'm wondering where one could draw the line though?  Especially FWD, the older it is, the more competitive it probably is (narrower, significantly shorter, significantly lighter, and in the Honda case, better geometry), until you get back to the EG Hatch era.

I agree, flawed is better than non-existent.  But it sucks when you create a class and it just becomes another Civic or Miata playground and then everyone points back and says "SEE, more classes are dumb"

SM doesn't allow moving suspension pickup points, so it's off to cart my full interior around in XP on the 200TW tires that make up a reasonable compromise for a toy... I'm in favor of Import CAM and will write a letter.

I'd be just as much in favor of letting folks go nuts with suspension mods in SM and skipping Import CAM, just as long as I get to build my vintage street/autocross/track car the way I want it, and the way I want it involves applying some of what we've learned about suspension and tires in the last 50 years.

I'm glad they stopped requiring same-manufacturer for engine swaps in SM; it was a ridiculous requirement that didn't cap cost/difficulty. More serious suspension reengineering really doesn't seem much beyond that scope to me.

Ransom said:

I'm glad they stopped requiring same-manufacturer for engine swaps in SM; it was a ridiculous requirement that didn't cap cost/difficulty. More serious suspension reengineering really doesn't seem much beyond that scope to me.

I agree the same engine manufacturer requirement was stupid and the new rules at least allow the cross mark transplant, but they didn't leave all the stupid behind. It is allowed now but they hit you with a 150 lb weight penalty.  So I drop a 400hp LS in a Chevette, no penalty. I drop a 200hp import 4 banger into the same Chevette and I get hit with an extra 150 lb weight penalty! What does that have to do with leveling the playing field in the class? That's just a "We still don't approve of your bastard swapped cars, so we'll let you play but only at a disadvantage." Thanks SCCA for making it clear my automotive creativity offends you.

In reply to Carl Heideman :

Old sports car drivers don't come out because 1) their cars will always get dominated by something else a little more modern.  2) because the cars are more valuable mostly sock or 3) if you really want to go racing, vintage racing is a much better investment.

When we used to go to AROC conventions, there were far, far more real race cars than reasonably prepared autocross cars.  Lots of people still have a lot of fun with Alfas, but a Miata is alwasy going to be a better choice- faster, cheaper and easier to get parts.  And that's before any CAM like modifications.   I only drove an Alfa because I enjoyed it more- there's no way I'd waste my time at SCCA events trying to win something- we had plenty of our own events to entertain us.

In reply to spacecadet :

My membership too has lapsed but I sent it anyway. 
I'd love to hear my V12 at full song.  

ProDarwin said:

spacecadet said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

A floated proposal for import cam included separate classes by drivetrain.

FWD Import CAM would be interesting if it were more recent cars.  I'm wondering where one could draw the line though?  Especially FWD, the older it is, the more competitive it probably is (narrower, significantly shorter, significantly lighter, and in the Honda case, better geometry), until you get back to the EG Hatch era.

 

I agree, flawed is better than non-existent.  But it sucks when you create a class and it just becomes another Civic or Miata playground and then everyone points back and says "SEE, more classes are dumb"

Outside of the Mini that ran in SMF back in 2018 and was fairly competitive, I think FWD Import CAM would probably be another Spec double wishbone honda class. And I believe the owner of the Mini ended up with a civic hatch a year later lol.

But I am curious if modern hot hatches can be competitive with them if you put minimum weight allowances higher than SMF currently allows, which may limit the fwd double wishbone hondas, but someone is going to get an accord or tsx to work and be faster than the strut hot hatches lol.

spacecadet said:

John Welsh said:

I am intrigued but uneducated....  

As I understand it, the first eligibility requirement of CAM is:

• Must be either a domestic automobile or truck (pick-up or SUV) of front-engine, rear-wheel-drive (FE/RWD) configuration 

 

So, that leads me to wonder, what is the goal of "import CAM"?  Is it...

• to allow Import vehicles with domestic engines to be allowed to play with the CAM-boys (and girls)
  • So, is this a placed for a Miata stuffed with an LSx to compete with Camaros?  
• or, is this a place for only import vehicles to play with unrestrictive rules on engine
  • So, making this a separate (but equal...ha) place for a Miata stuffed with an LSx?  

Does current CAM allow you to put a Toyota JZ2 into your Camaro (if that is what you wanted)?    Said another way, can you use a non domestic engine in your domestic car?  

Would Import CAM allow the domestic engine in your import car?  Or, is this more intended to be a place for a import car with Import engine like a Nissan 240sx that is stuffed with a Skyline engine?  

In theory you could put a K series/RB26/rotary in a F body and run CAM with their current rules. It just has to be a Domestic car. The Min weights don't give you a lot of incentive to do so. The turbo 4cyl 6th gen camaro the GM team runs is at the min weight for CAMC with almost no mods to save weight.

My hope is for import cam to serve the underserved cars. Wierd modified domestic FWD stuff and the heavier more modern FWD stuff.

Thats my skin in the game so to speak, thats what I'm after.

The SMF cars are neat, but they are totally old crappy E36 M3box hondas with nothing street about them left.

I'd also like to see a Import CAM class that just says, no min weight, must be a production car. Have fun.

I wonder if there is any way to get people to autocross other fwd cars outside of the double wishbone hondas. I gave up in frustration autocrossing my 2011 GTI due to how frustrating it was to autocross vs my double wishbone honda, locally my integra classed competitively, but nationally, its stuck in DSP. But cheaper consumables, and me not willing to commit expensive changes to making the GTI competitive with an LSD and camber plates, I rather just drive the integra. The hondas seem like the easy button, but I've seen some local work with VW's that have altered geometry fixes that make them competitive and fun to drive and would be perfect to run in a FWD CAM class. 

I've codriven a MK7 GTI PP with front camber and it was fun and setup to what I think my GTI would need to be competitive in STH. But the cost of putting an LSD in it, I can't just commit to that when I don't even trust the long-term reliability of my mk6...

The way to solve this is a different paradigm than trying to put every class in a box.

The action pistol competitions, USPSA, scores everyone on hit points per second, targets have higher points for center hits than peripheral  hits,  and calls the highest score 100%, everyone else is scored as a percentage of that 100%.  

They have class cutoffs at 95%, 90%, 85%, 70%, 60% and 40% of the top score.  Each class gets a  1st, 2nd, and 3rd.   Match winner is Overall high score and gets the best prize.   The Sporting Clays guys have a similar system.    Of course low time would would rule but its just math to do the percentages for increasing times.

If autocross did this you could run what you brung and would be grouped by percentage of Fastest Time of the day.  Only safety inspections would be required instead of all the scrutinizing of what  you bolted onto the car  with the present system.  

And its harder to cheat since  you don't know which bracket you will end up in until all the runs are timed and the computer spits out the answer.   

jharry3 said:

  you don't know which bracket you will end up in until all the runs are timed and the computer spits out the answer.   

 

That sounds incredibly dumb.

I liked the idea of Import CAM until I realized I'd still be outgunned. My Civic is in SMF due to the B16 swap, but would be STS otherwise, it makes for a nice daily and locally competitive car.  I'm not competitive regionally (nor nationally) in SMF, SMTire, or "CAM for Imports" because those will still be dominated by forced induction K swaps.  Its one reason I am heavily considering moving up to Time Trials, I may still be outgunned in Prep/Max, but the seat time and the experience may be worth it. 

You could keep E36 M3box old double wishbone hondas from being dominant if the minimum weights were high enough.

Idk if they'd do that and idk if it needs to be. If you look at the class the way CAM is done, then it doesn't really matter.

If recruitment to national events and pulling people upwards from regional autocross is the goal , then it doesn't matter. Rookies and newbies need to be exposed to the higher levels of competition.

If we give them a ladder to do that, then they can have the opportunity. CAM is filled with lots of builds that get destroyed by other classes in RAW time, yet people love it and keep coming back. There's a community there.

In reply to Carl Heideman :

Actually the switch was because of the massive increase in minimum weights. An SN95 at full stock wright would have to add 200 pounds of ballast to make minimum CAM-C weight.

chrispy said:

I liked the idea of Import CAM until I realized I'd still be outgunned. My Civic is in SMF due to the B16 swap, but would be STS otherwise, it makes for a nice daily and locally competitive car.  I'm not competitive regionally (nor nationally) in SMF, SMTire, or "CAM for Imports" because those will still be dominated by forced induction K swaps.  Its one reason I am heavily considering moving up to Time Trials, I may still be outgunned in Prep/Max, but the seat time and the experience may be worth it. 

Swapped Hondas are probably going to be screwed in classing if you arent at the pointy end of things. I bet your civic would be probably similar to the Del Sol VTEC or EM1 with the b16 running in STS and locally I'd probably see if you can add an exception to that to run in that class with other competitors vs SMF. 

spacecadet said:

You could keep E36 M3box old double wishbone hondas from being dominant if the minimum weights were high enough.

How high do you think min weights should be? 2600lb or more? And would the weights prevent some of the heavier double wishbone hondas from dominating then? 

Wasn't the whole point of CAM was to create a slot for the American Muscle Car and create a specific set of groups for them to run against each other?   A CIM is not needed because Imports run in almost everything else.  

I agree with noddaz,  CAM was created to attract American Muscle cars who really didn't have a good place to compete in. They were usually stuck in Prepared or Modified for simple mods where they were outclassed. Imports in comparison have had plenty of classes to compete in.