Integra Type R

Trying to remove the (great) Integra Type R talk from the 'semi affordable exotics' thread.

The type R is an insanely good vehicle, but what are they really worth in good stock or near to stock condition? A quick googlymoogly sees some crack pipe smokers wanting mod $40's for a nice one, to lots of riced out ones in the $10-15K, even that seems high for a ruined car.

So what are they actually worth, and what, other than future collectability makes them worth so so much more than a stock Integra with an LSD an engine swap and some suspension thrown at it?

Adrian_Thompson wrote: what, other than future collectability makes them worth so so much more than a stock Integra with an LSD an engine swap and some suspension thrown at it?

They're a numbered car that represented what the "fast and furious" generation aspired to have?

I think a lot of their value comes from the fact that they were the only Type-R package car Honda sent to the states. To me the car has some charm as it's such a potent car in stock trim, but no way I would pay the money they are going for these days.

You could take a GSR integra and make it just as good and faster than the R for not much money.

There's a guy up in central WI who has one, and regularly posts FTD (s2k on slicks is a regular, so is a porsche spyder kit car) at local autoxes STOCK. He's good, but yes, the car is that good.

Its a limited production run of a car that really is better than the sum of its parts. I'd guess that the ITR is the e30 M3 of the 90's.

MCarp22 wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote: what, other than future collectability makes them worth so so much more than a stock Integra with an LSD an engine swap and some suspension thrown at it?

They're a numbered car that represented what the "fast and furious" generation aspired to have?

As part of that generation (Sub 30 crowd), I find that insulting (personally). HOWEVER, most of the morons that I went to school with that were into cars would likely fall into that category. So, therefore, I am officially removing myself from that generation and your comment stands as correct. Good work sir.

I think the Type R preceded the F&F craze, but certainly got caught in the wave afterward. It's a special car in the same way that the NSX is. You either get it or you don't. The numbers don't add up, but that's not how collectible cars work.

They're special cars, and the crack pipe $40k people are only slightly ahead of the curve.

Yeah I agree. They really are the best and most pure FWD handling cars ever made. I don't even think that the latest hot hatches have really caught 100% up.

If you look at that crowd, there are 3 cars that get major props. Type R, Supra, and Skyline. Look at the prices of all of those cars.

Same motor as the GSR?

If so, and you are not looking for an investment and just want to experience one, why bother. Just setup as GSR.

There were a significant amount of tweaks to the unibody vs a GSR. They actually tweaked everything--even thinner glass...all for a net weight savings of basically what the average person has rolling around in the their trunk in glovebox. The GSR and Type R both had a B18C engine, but the Type R was hand built and put out 20-30 more hp. It was Honda pulling out all the stops when they were still on top. GSR is obviously better bang for the buck, but that's the wrong mindset for establishing collector car prices. Think 911 RS-A, M3 lightweight, etc.

I'll just leave this here...

Actually, I'm kidding. If I hit the lottery, I'd buy the nicest unmolested ITR I could find to add to the collection.

So what is the break down of GSR to Type R changes, from an enthusiast performance POV, not a collector?

Lighter glass Some body strengthening? what? Hand built engine with hand finished ports. Nothing a performance build couldn't surpass anyway. Suspension upgrade - Again, even with an ST type build you would be beyond this. Brakes?? LSD? - what are the after market options?

What would a mild GSR build be and cost for a fun, non class built, toy, autocrosser, track car emphasizing bang for the buck and reliability?

Yep, they do have an LSD - at least the one I owned in the UK (UK model, not grey import) did. The other part that comes to mind are the very good Recaro front seats that the ITR came with, and the Titanium shift knob .

I think there is enough knowledge around to build a B18 with the same power or more and stick in an LSD. Unless you're getting a low mileage cream puff you're looking at suspension anyway.

Look back at history. You can argue that a Shelby GT350 is just a modded Mustang, yet the collector market would say otherwise. Same with a '67 Camaro Z28. It's more than the sum of its parts. These are very limited, factory-tuned specials. To some people, a modded Integra isn't the same as a factory-build Type R.

It's also supply vs. demand. A bunch of people would like a Type R, and there are only so many cars out there. Heck, I'd pay good money for a good example.

I'm really trying to take this away form the collector question. No doubt as a long term investment you want a type R. But as a toy to thrash hard and put away wet, I'm asking about the alternative.

http://www.integratyper.org/specs/images/brochures/acura_97r_technical_guide.pdf there's almost too much to list, the E30 M3 comparison really nails it.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: So what is the break down of GSR to Type R changes, from an enthusiast performance POV, not a collector? Lighter glass Some body strengthening? what? Hand built engine with hand finished ports. Nothing a performance build couldn't surpass anyway. Suspension upgrade - Again, even with an ST type build you would be beyond this. Brakes?? LSD? - what are the after market options? What would a mild GSR build be and cost for a fun, non class built, toy, autocrosser, track car emphasizing bang for the buck and reliability?

So I think it would be very possible to build a GSR that performs better than an ITR. However, I think the main thing the ITR has going for it is the team of factory engineers that did all the work to make sure everything was tuned really well, all parts were used to the maximum of their ability within a safety factor. That's always the part that is hard for enthusiasts to match - the time and the dollars spent tuning everything to work together.

Plus, how are you ever going to get that wing and those red honda badges?

Adrian_Thompson wrote: I'm really trying to take this away form the collector question. No doubt as a long term investment you want a type R. But as a toy to thrash hard and put away wet, I'm asking about the alternative.

If you just want a fast Integra, yeah, take an RS tub (no sunroof) and install a K24. Bam.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

The answer to that is pretty clear, and I don't think there's any debate. Yes, you can build a faster, better handling Integra for less than an ITR. Everyone knows that. But it would be virtually impossible to build a 100% accurate replica with all the little changes, and only an ITR will have the stock class eligibility. And, of course, there's the "having the real thing" advantage. If all you want is a really fast Integra, that money spent on an ITR could be utilized much more effectively. But if you want an ITR, well...things are only worth what someone's willing to pay for them, and unfortunately people will pay a LOT for real ITRs.

johndej wrote: http://www.integratyper.org/specs/images/brochures/acura_97r_technical_guide.pdf there's almost too much to list, the E30 M3 comparison really nails it.

This is an awesome read. Thank you for posting the link.

rcutclif wrote:

johndej wrote: http://www.integratyper.org/specs/images/brochures/acura_97r_technical_guide.pdf there's almost too much to list, the E30 M3 comparison really nails it.

This is an awesome read. Thank you for posting the link.

site blocked at work :( Sad panda

Logic has no place in this debate, car purchases like this are a totally emotional thing. As mentioned above, I think the ITR belongs squarely in the inner circle of ricer halo cars and if I had the money to toss around speculating on the value of future classics I would be buying every clean ITR I could find. The day of six figure Supras is coming and $40k for an ITR won't look so crack pipe when that day arrives.

There was actually a pretty clean looking one on the local CL a few weeks ago asking something like $20-25k, maybe a little less even. I'm willing to bet that if one were willing to buy that and put it into storage for another 5-10 years a pretty healthy profit could be made. What was the total production volume anyways?

Adrian_Thompson wrote: site blocked at work :( Sad panda

Try this one:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6zhXMWQvYNyM0V4TWZwclpaOVU/view?usp=sharing

It's a PDF, you should be able to download it using the arrow at the top of the screen.

Cool doc BTW.

Tyler H wrote: ... They actually tweaked everything--even thinner glass...

I did not see that in the doc above. Although, there are a LOT of differences between the two.

If they did, that would likely be some VERY expensive glass to replace!!!

Here's another site that shows some of the differences between the Integras.

http://www.itrsport.com/specifications.html

I had an opportunity to buy a bone stock ITR a few years ago for $8000. The kid used it to drive to and from work and putt around on the weekends. He said he bought it for around the same price a few years prior. Not sure whatever happened to the car but I sometimes wish I would have bought it. I had just bought my Evo VIII and couldn't afford another play car at the time sadly. Didn't realize the prices were getting so high up now.

Is the ITR still considered the best FWD ever here in the US? Has any publication ever tried to do a shoot out between a bunch of FWD handlers released here? All I can think of are ITR, MSP, MS3, Cobalt SS turbo, and FiST/FoST. I'm sure I'm missing more. Though I feel like those torque vectoring systems in the Fords are pretty gimmicky compared to the other cars mentioned.

In reply to OutOfFocus:

The ITR is still considered the best, AFAIK. Honorable mentions sometimes go to the Lotus Elan and VW Corrado SLC; I've heard the MSP mentioned, but the rest seem to present an illusion of good handling more than actual good handling.