Yeah, I've seen/read an article when the most recent civic SI came out showing a stock 98 type r still being faster around the track then it (and any of the Civic Sis sold in the US)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc5UU_EksNk here's kinda what I was thinking of
I have something wrong with my brain, I think. Even with reading through that pdf, the Integra does nothing for me. Even with 195 hp. I still don't care. I know I should care, but I don't. If it has Honda/Acura written on it, it's just 'blah' to me, unless it's one of the few rear wheel drive ones. I don't even understand why I'm like this.
RossD wrote: I have something wrong with my brain, I think. Even with reading through that pdf, the Integra does nothing for me. Even with 195 hp. I still don't care. I know I should care, but I don't. If it has Honda/Acura written on it, it's just 'blah' to me, unless it's one of the few rear wheel drive ones. *I* don't even understand why I'm like this.
I'd say it's the reputation they have. I've not always been a big Honda fan, however that's because 90% of the owners in the last 10 years just do whatever the trend is. Big wings and body kits, to JDM everything, to slammed and cambered. Then many of the owners no just enough to BS there way through a casual car guy conversation with a non-Honda owner. I went to Import Alliance this past weekend at the Ky Speedway. Pretty much, nothings changed with Honda kids. So yeah, they get that stigma.
Really the only way to shake those thoughts from your head is to go out and really drive a good example of one. Either a well put together Civic (proper suspension, moderate B or H series swap, good tires, ect) or Integra GSR or GSR/ITR Clone. They drive much better than you would expect, and its an easy car to get caught up with enjoying. I am actually back in the market for a unmolested EF Civc Sedan (80's-very early 90's square). Just because they drive pretty good, great on gas, and when kept mostly stock, don't really look all that bad. (If you like 80's square cars)
But to be honest, your feeling towards Honda, is my exact feeling towards Mustang/Mustang Owners. I'm not sure why, but no matter what I am driving at the time, Mustang owners feel the need to challenge me. From the fly by, to burnouts/tire chirping leaving parking lots, to reving at me while in a drive thru. I don't get it, but it is whatever. I will tip my cap to a good Mustang build, but most of them, I tend to just look away with little to no interest.
I had a change to buy an unwrecked, unmodded one a few years ago. I didn't have any garage space at the time and was terrified of it getting stolen.
Kicking myself now...
So why doesn't anyone make a lightweight FWD car that handles as good as an ITR without resorting to dumb gimmicks that brake outside wheels or whatever?
Because based on inflation for what the Type-R cost in 1997, it would be something like $37,000 new today.
You can buy a new STi for less.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/1997-acura-integra-type-r-archived-test-review-an-absolute-blast-to-drive-page-2
When the ITR was new, I was autocrossing my 5th generation Civic hatchback, which is another model on the same platform. I also worked pit crew a few times for a USTTC road racing team that was running similar Civics with non-Type R B18c drive train swaps. When I had a chance to see an ITR up close, beyond the extra power, I saw that Honda had systematically upgraded everything that was prone failure with competition or track use. What I remember right now is wheel bearings, hubs, brakes, rear subframe.
Speaking of ITR handling, about this same time I bought ITR springs and swaybars off a wreck and bolted them into my Civic with set of good dampers. The ride height looks completely stock. The car was transformed handling wise. I have been driving it this way for 10 years. It is a complete sleeper. The only visual giveaway on the car isn't stock are the the wheels. I have surprised more than a few people on highway on ramps with it.
RossD wrote: I have something wrong with my brain, I think. Even with reading through that pdf, the Integra does nothing for me. Even with 195 hp. I still don't care. I know I should care, but I don't. If it has Honda/Acura written on it, it's just 'blah' to me, unless it's one of the few rear wheel drive ones. *I* don't even understand why I'm like this.
ditto..... although my dis-interest goes back to 1980 when I was working @ a Honda dealer.... meh
calteg wrote: I had a change to buy an unwrecked, unmodded one a few years ago. I didn't have any garage space at the time and was terrified of it getting stolen. Kicking myself now...
I attempted to buy one when they were new. Two things put me off. The dealer of course wanted far more than MSRP and it didn't come with air. I know that sounds lame but I was coming out of an RX7 that didn't have any air and I just couldn't do another vehicle with out it. Ya that's right, the Integra Type R was going to be my DD. I did drive one though and the Integra GSR version............both very nice. I still don't know how Honda dropped the ball so much with the RSX.
I don't know why nearly everyone says take a GSR to make a Type R equivalent clone. If you want to make a Type R equivalent clone the best chassis to use would be an RS not a GSR. When i went from a GS to an RS the handling difference was pretty noticeable because of the weight difference and lack of moonroof. Was also nice that there was no ABS to have to deal with either! Would snatch up a Type R in an instant if I ever have the chance to get one, the RS was almost just as fun as my FR-S is to drive, but it has a much better motor (the B series is also the absolutely sweetest sounding I4 motor ever made along with the 20V 4AGE...civic motor in a Lola...)! The motor, suspension, and light weight chassis is what makes those cars...plus the hatch just swallows a whole lot of stuff (much more than my FR-S) - love them! They are basically the FWD equivalent of the FR-S...the chassis was built for handling and the steering is really good in them (especially when you depower the power steering and get the steering feel better than the FR-S)
Prices are only going to go up...
I wish we got the 4 door ITR too...would make a nice family car:
Yup. Decent examples of DA Integras seem to have bottomed out at 2500 or so around here. DC Integras (the generation after and from whence the ITR was born) are a bit cheaper. I hear you on the Honda crowd, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying mine. In my mind, Civics and Integras are a lot like Mustangs of yesteryear. Ubiquitous, cheap buy in, and super simple to work on. For these reasons, the brand tends to draw in a younger crowd and/or people without much knowledge/willingness to acquire knowledge. On the other hand, they also allow for a younger generation to get started on modding and racing, a hobby from which they might otherwise be excluded due to the often prohibitively high cost. That being said, I objectively think that prices for ITRs have gotten a bit out of control, considering I could buy an NSX for around the same. True, the NSX isn't an actual "collector's car", but it's unique and rare enough that I think it can be mentioned in the same paragraph. I won't even get started on Supras. The first time I saw a Supra priced at 90K I thought it was a typo.
I don't get the appeal of the Type R. It's a great car- with losts of astrisks. For a FWD car. For an NA 4 cyl. But not in comparison to lots of other cars in it's price range. Heck, it could be argued that it wasn't even the best handling FWD Honda, what about the Prelude SH? I get that it's a great drivers car, a FWD Miata. Except Miata's are great because they are cheap. And not FWD.
I remember when they first came out, and they were "the" import car to have. I was driving my '90 Eagle Talon to the Wednesday night drags at Sears Point. On the way, a new Type R and his buddy in CRX tried to get me to race them. I didn't bite, because even at that young age, I knew street racing was stupid. Especially on the way to the track. They did a ricer fly by downhill after the bridge, and took off weaving through traffic. As luck would have it, I lined up against the Type R on my first run. My 120,000mi Talon with $500 in mods beat him by a full second, and repeated that in a later race.
Boost_Crazy wrote: I don't get the appeal of the Type R. It's a great car- with losts of astrisks. *For a FWD car. *For an NA 4 cyl. But not in comparison to lots of other cars in it's price range. Heck, it could be argued that it wasn't even the best handling FWD Honda, what about the Prelude SH? I get that it's a great drivers car, a FWD Miata. Except Miata's are great because they are cheap. And not FWD. I remember when they first came out, and they were "the" import car to have. I was driving my '90 Eagle Talon to the Wednesday night drags at Sears Point. On the way, a new Type R and his buddy in CRX tried to get me to race them. I didn't bite, because even at that young age, I knew street racing was stupid. Especially on the way to the track. They did a ricer fly by downhill after the bridge, and took off weaving through traffic. As luck would have it, I lined up against the Type R on my first run. My 120,000mi Talon with $500 in mods beat him by a full second, and repeated that in a later race.
It's a FWD car that is as balanced and precise to drive as a highly balanced and precise RWD sports car...the blend of its active torque biasing differential / motor/ transmission and chassis /suspension are a wonderful thing. I'd take one over a miata any day - dead serious. Watch that video with 4 door ITR I posted... and then watch this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UkJXe0IBt8#t=130
And are you serious with the Prelude SH comment?!? 
It's a land barge in comparison.. a very, very good one though.
In reply to Vracer111:
It's not a bad car, and I'm sure it's fun to drive- but to me it is way over hyped and way over priced. And I extend that to the other striped down factory racers too. No AC or sound deadening to shave .0001 seconds off your lap times in your street car, and charge you more for it? I'll pass. The first video was good. They are quick for a FWD and for an NA 1.8. But the RX7 and the WRX were much quicker when they weren't being held up. The whole rest of the field got held up when the WRX punted the 3 door ITR.
I'm somewhat serious about the Prelude. There was a big comparison test in C&D where they declared it the best handling car under $30k, then put it up against a bunch of super cars in handling tests where it fared very well. Don't know if it really handles better than an ITR, but it's a much nicer car that is just as quick.
Boost_Crazy wrote: In reply to Vracer111: It's not a bad car, and I'm sure it's fun to drive- but to me it is way over hyped and way over priced. And I extend that to the other striped down factory racers too. No AC or sound deadening to shave .0001 seconds off your lap times in your street car, and charge you more for it? I'll pass. The first video was good. They are quick *for a FWD and *for an NA 1.8. But the RX7 and the WRX were much quicker when they weren't being held up. The whole rest of the field got held up when the WRX punted the 3 door ITR. I'm somewhat serious about the Prelude. There was a big comparison test in C&D where they declared it the best handling car under $30k, then put it up against a bunch of super cars in handling tests where it fared very well. Don't know if it really handles better than an ITR, but it's a much nicer car that is just as quick.
Pro's to a RX7 (And I owned a pretty solid FC myself): RWD. Revs for days. Handles pretty good. Cons: HEAT. Apex Seals. MPG. Insurance.
Pro's to STI/EVO: Boost. AWD. Winter friendly. Rally Friendly! 4 doors. Cons: MPG. Transmission issues. Repair cost. Insurance.
Pro's to Tpye R: Revs for days. Light. Reliable. RARE (for True Type R). FWD is winter friendly. MPG! OEM upgrades over the GSR chassis's. Easy Maintenance. Cons: Insurance. Main Relays. Target for Theft. Some parts hard to get from OEM but options from lower end models should work nearly as good.
I'm not trying to sway you to the FWD/Type R side. But I can easily see why they are desirable. The are a great daily driver that can be tracked on the weekends, and for a lot of the current car folk childhood dreams.
You looked through magazines and in movies and there's always been that one car you want to have. For some, it's Marty McFly's Black 85 Tacoma. For others it's a 911 GTS3RS (me). Maybe a 56 Vette for some. And for a lot of younger people it's the cars they were exposed too going to middle school. When I bought my 2014 tC I could have gone with a handful of different cars. But for 1, I get a nice Toyota discount working at the plant. 2. I like the tC, it may not have the specs of a new SI Hatch, or a new Imprezza. But I like it for some reason. Once lowered, the car handles great, it's comfortable, decent on gas, and looks good (in my opinion). So I bought it.
Boost_Crazy wrote: In reply to Vracer111: It's not a bad car, and I'm sure it's fun to drive- but to me it is way over hyped and way over priced. And I extend that to the other striped down factory racers too. No AC or sound deadening to shave .0001 seconds off your lap times in your street car, and charge you more for it? I'll pass. The first video was good. They are quick *for a FWD and *for an NA 1.8. But the RX7 and the WRX were much quicker when they weren't being held up. The whole rest of the field got held up when the WRX punted the 3 door ITR. I'm somewhat serious about the Prelude. There was a big comparison test in C&D where they declared it the best handling car under $30k, then put it up against a bunch of super cars in handling tests where it fared very well. Don't know if it really handles better than an ITR, but it's a much nicer car that is just as quick.
Quickness/Speed has little to do in why I'd specifically want a Type R...it's the steering and chassis feedback along with that specially hand built B18C5 motor. It has a special quality not really found in FWD vehicles. And A/C was an option you could get for them and came in the later models. As much as I'm a believer in RWD being the absolute best drive configuration for fun and performance in a car, there will always be a place to welcome an Integra Type R into my life...it's that special to me. The DC-2 was Honda at the absolute top of their FF game...and it's been downhill ever since...
A Prelude, any prelude, will not handle better than an ITR...stock for stock. The extra heft and softer suspension setup comes into play. You can choose your line in the Type R...the Prelude chooses the line in comparison and has to work a lot harder at everything it does.
Fun fact - The Type R is a favorite among pirates!
While it wasn't as lightweight, the Ion Redline captured the essence of an excellent handling fwd car in the era shortly after the itr. It was also nearly as rare figuring 4k ITR's and 6k IRL's. The IRL had one huge advantage however, it didn't carry a 50% chance of not being in your driveway the next morning. 
I like the ITR a lot, but for anything over $15k, there are so many other better cars out there.
I just cannot fathom paying that much for a car. Sure I have probably put that much into a car but to me thats different. And even though I know its special to me its still just a 90s honda and I dont care much for those.
In reply to Desy: >Pro's to STI/EVO: Boost. AWD. Winter friendly. Rally Friendly! 4 doors. Cons: MPG. Transmission issues. Repair cost. Insurance.
I can't really speak for the STi but can for Evo, not sure where transmission issues and repair cost come from? My Evo is almost at 100k miles after 8 years of ownership. It has seen a few track days, a lot of hard daily driven miles, a lot of hard twisty back road miles, and generally me just driving it like I want it to die. No transmission issues and haven't had to do any repairs on it yet. Hell it gets better MPG than my stock Focus SVT even with intake, cams, fuel system upgrades, turbo back exhaust, and tune.
I'd still rock an ITR if I could find one unmolested for $8000 again.
Who am I kidding? In this day and age an S2000 can be had for that price and in great decent condition where I live. I'd still try to get some way to put an ITR in my nonexistent garage though.
^EVO X? Normal manual or DCT?
The disconnect between people putting down money (ie, the market) and those who aren't (ie, spectators) can be fun to watch. Collector cars seem to accumulate value faster now than they did in the past, and the ramp up in prices can be surprising. Obvious case in point: aircooled 911s and E30 M5s. Less obvious: VW Westfalias and ITRs. In the case of the current Westfalia owners at least, none of them can believe the asking prices for the vans these days compared to 3-5 years ago. But they're selling! And what drives prices is what buyers are willing to pay.
The opposite can be true as well - when I bought my E39 M5, the prices were in freefall. The difference between what sellers were asking and what buyers were willing to pay was fairly dramatic.
Looking at completed eBay listings is a quick way to get a feel for the market.
As for the ITR, I'd love to try one someday. I don't need one for my garage - I have my fun FWD Honda in my '85 CRX - but it would be a pretty smart purchase.
z31maniac wrote: ^EVO X? Normal manual or DCT?
VIII!
logdog wrote: Fun fact - The Type R is a favorite among pirates!
Were you on Nissan Forums back in the early 2000's? I remember see this a lot on there. I miss that place.
yamaha wrote: While it wasn't as lightweight, the Ion Redline captured the essence of an excellent handling fwd car in the era shortly after the itr. It was also nearly as rare figuring 4k ITR's and 6k IRL's. The IRL had one huge advantage however, it didn't carry a 50% chance of not being in your driveway the next morning.
Wasn't the Cobalt SS SC lighter? Those did seem like cool cars. Not sure why they weren't as popular. Same with the Cobalt SS TC. I could have sworn I've seen this online somewhere (this means it's true) that the turbo Cobalt was putting down pretty fast times at Nurburgring or however you spell it (benchracer talk). Still seemed like a cool car.
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