Interesting car, unusual styling

http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1421/aptera-2e-production-version-unveiled/

i wonder if it has dynamic handling?

No personal decision on styling yet.

Looks a bit fragile for everyday use.

100 mile range would be enough for my current daily needs, although I am not really amped up over the design, it just doesn't spark my imagination.

I'd drive something like that. Build one with a small 2 cylinder diesel and get a long way on a gallon. But then, I have fantasies about Onan diesels and old jet fighter fuel tanks, too.

I'm not sure it would survive my driveway.

I love the look. Kinda like all of those sci fi novels and movies are actually going to start happening.

TJ said: 100 mile range would be enough for my current daily needs,

I thought they were originally a hybrid, not just electric. This is where an all electric fails, IMO. Sure, for normal day to day, it's fine, but what about those days that you have a ton of errands to run during lunch and after work? Or if you need to take a trip of more than 100 miles? I think they would do much better (if it ever comes out) if it could totally replace a car and not be a "car for work" in addition to a "car for other things"

-Rob

I would totally drive one.

Although, one of these with a small diesel would be pretty rad too!

Yep, that's the rub on electric vehicles. I can really see the benefits for the daily trip to work and back and maybe a few errands or a trip to lunch. For me that is doable in less than 100 miles. But they are useless for longer trips and you either need another vehicle or would have to rent or borrow another vehicle. I've already got a couple part-time cars - two that I really don't drive in the rain often and when it gets to be really hot I'd rather drive a car with AC. Electric vehicles cost so much for so little...maybe someday, but not now not for me.

The original Aptera scored some incredible mileage figures, and looked like a winner. Now, after several years of dicking around, they have a bunch of pissed-off people who want their deposits back, and much skepticism. I'd like to see the thing make it, but am squarely in the skeptic camp as well.

Here's what I don't get:

In the 1800-lb. composite-bodied 2e, the 110-horsepower, 232 lb.-ft. of torque electric drive system has a claimed range of 100 miles. Recharging time from full discharge is set at 6 to 11 hours. The front-drive machine is said to reach 60 mph in 9.0 seconds.

Huh? With that sort of power-to-weight, acceleration should be in the supercar camp. I can only guess that they limit how much you can throw down at a time, so that you don't make those skinny high-milleage tires into smoking puddles....

kreb wrote: Here's what I don't get:

In the 1800-lb. composite-bodied 2e, the 110-horsepower, 232 lb.-ft. of torque electric drive system has a claimed range of 100 miles. Recharging time from full discharge is set at 6 to 11 hours. The front-drive machine is said to reach 60 mph in 9.0 seconds.

Huh? With that sort of power-to-weight, acceleration should be in the supercar camp.

What? That power to weight ratio is about the same as a 4 cylinder Honda Accord.

Aptera: 110hp, 1800lbs = 16.3 lbs/hp

2010 Accord EX 4cyl: 190hp, 3200 lbs = 16.8lbs/hp

2010 Porsche 911 Turbo: 480hp, 3500lbs = 7.3lbs/hp

Sure, the aerodynamics should help the Aptera, but that really won't start to come into play until about 60mph. Actually, I'm really curious how good the aerodynamics really are when compared with a normal car. Those wheels sticking out in the wind instead of integrated into the body will probably add quite a bit of drag.

Bob

I would hate to hit a Prius with it. It doesn't look too crash worthy to me.

Toyman01 wrote: I would hate to hit a Prius with it. It doesn't look too crash worthy to me.

Doesn't have to be- it's techically a motorcycle. AKA, major loophole. In some states, you'd have to wear a helmet while "driving" it.

rob_lewis wrote: This is where an all electric fails, IMO. Sure, for normal day to day, it's fine, but what about those days that you have a ton of errands to run during lunch and after work? Or if you need to take a trip of more than 100 miles? I think they would do much better (if it ever comes out) if it could totally replace a car and not be a "car for work" in addition to a "car for other things" -Rob

This is where car forums always fail.

Funny that we require every electric car to be perfect for 100% of everyone's possible uses, but we don't require that of ANY OTHER PRODUCTION CAR. Miatas are great, but they can't tow worth a crap. But no one says, "Miatas fail because what if you want to tow a horse trailer?"

Locosts are on everyone's wish list here, but they don't fit a family of 4 if you want to go across country. Interesting that we don't instantly complain about that failing the moment one gets posted here, though...

Many of us are looking for cheap tow vehicles, like full size vans. But when one gets posted, there isn't a flurry of "it sucks for autocross and gets horrible commuting fuel mileage, so no one should A) buy one, and b) MAKE one" posts.

But post en electric car that WILL work for over 50% of the commuting public and it's instantly "electrics fail and no none should make one or buy one because they can't be every vehicle for every use I might possibly have."

Give me a break.

Same for crashworthiness. 99% of the cars we droll over in here have aboutthe same crashworthiness of a wet paper bag, from clasic Fiats and MGs to homebuilt Locosts and old Lotus Europas. But when one is posted are we saying how much we love those or how scared we are to be ain crash with a Prius? ONLY an electric car like this gets that sort of treatment. Amazing how short sighted people can be once they make up their minds to dismiss something.

Most of us here have more than one vehicle as it is. Even a 40 mile range pure electric would be a perfect commuter car for me, as I have a 14 mile round trip commute. If I plugged the car in every night, I'd have enough to do all SORTS of errands afte work with no issues. And I have another vehicle for those occasional trips across the state.

If I had a Volt, for example, the fuel in the tank would go bad from not being used.

There are 200million + registered vehciles in the US. Even if a pure electric was only "perfect" for 5% of those owners, that's 10 MILLION vehicles. 10 million units is a hell of a business case for a single car model, doncha think? Even without having to be perfect for EVERY possible use by EVERY possible buyer.

rob_lewis wrote: I love the look. Kinda like all of those sci fi novels and movies are actually going to start happening.

That's what I like about it. I want my electric/hybrid/innovative eco-mobile to look spaceage-y and futuristic, not like a regular sedan with a green badge.

Schmidlap wrote: What? That power to weight ratio is about the same as a 4 cylinder Honda Accord. Aptera: 110hp, 1800lbs = 16.3 lbs/hp 2010 Accord EX 4cyl: 190hp, 3200 lbs = 16.8lbs/hp 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo: 480hp, 3500lbs = 7.3lbs/hp Sure, the aerodynamics should help the Aptera, but that really won't start to come into play until about 60mph. Actually, I'm really curious how good the aerodynamics really are when compared with a normal car. Those wheels sticking out in the wind instead of integrated into the body will probably add quite a bit of drag. Bob

Er, did you notice the torque figures? Or forget that it's available at 0 RPM? Also, electric motors are rated at maximum continuous horsepower, while gas engines are rated at maximum output irrespective of longevity. That 110 hp electric motor could probably produce 350 HP for 20 seconds (although at 25 seconds you might have a smoldering heap of metal and insulation)

edit: by the way, it has a cg of .11
Yep. No misprint.

I pooped out an egg.

Chris_V wrote:

rob_lewis wrote: This is where an all electric fails, IMO. Sure, for normal day to day, it's fine, but what about those days that you have a ton of errands to run during lunch and after work? Or if you need to take a trip of more than 100 miles? I think they would do much better (if it ever comes out) if it could totally replace a car and not be a "car for work" in addition to a "car for other things" -Rob

This is where car forums always fail. Funny that we require every electric car to be perfect for 100% of everyone's possible uses, but we don't require that of ANY OTHER PRODUCTION CAR. Miatas are great, but they can't tow worth a crap. But no one says, "Miatas fail because what if you want to tow a horse trailer?" Locosts are on everyone's wish list here, but they don't fit a family of 4 if you want to go across country. Interesting that we don't instantly complain about that failing the moment one gets posted here, though... Many of us are looking for cheap tow vehicles, like full size vans. But when one gets posted, there isn't a flurry of "it sucks for autocross and gets horrible commuting fuel mileage, so no one should A) buy one, and b) MAKE one" posts. But post en electric car that WILL work for over 50% of the commuting public and it's instantly "electrics fail and no none should make one or buy one because they can't be every vehicle for every use *I* might possibly have." Give me a break. Same for crashworthiness. 99% of the cars we droll over in here have aboutthe same crashworthiness of a wet paper bag, from clasic Fiats and MGs to homebuilt Locosts and old Lotus Europas. But when one is posted are we saying how much we love those or how scared we are to be ain crash with a Prius? ONLY an electric car like this gets that sort of treatment. Amazing how short sighted people can be once they make up their minds to dismiss something. Most of us here have more than one vehicle as it is. Even a 40 mile range pure electric would be a perfect commuter car for me, as I have a 14 mile round trip commute. If I plugged the car in every night, I'd have enough to do all SORTS of errands afte work with no issues. And I have another vehicle for those occasional trips across the state. If I had a Volt, for example, the fuel in the tank would go bad from not being used. There are 200million + registered vehciles in the US. Even if a pure electric was only "perfect" for 5% of those owners, that's 10 MILLION vehicles. 10 million units is a hell of a business case for a single car model, doncha think? Even without having to be perfect for EVERY possible use by EVERY possible buyer.

First, I would say that the majority of this board is NOTHING like the rest of the US. Sure, we all own multiple cars but there are lots of co-workers and friends that think we're nuts for owning more than one or two. Even then, the cheap tow vehicle or locost we talk about adding as a second car is WELL under what one of these will go for. Often, our DD's do 90% of what we need them to do. It's easier for me to spend $2000 for a beater van to tow with (or a Miata to play with) than $30k for a "drive to work" car.

My case is not against efficiency, I actually WANT one and WANT it to succeed. They had (IIRC) originally talked about a hybrid. Basically, a car that could also be used for long trips or emergencies when it hasn't been fully charged yet. That's where I think they have failed by trying to go full electric.

I look at my neighbors. They are a one car couple with two kids in college. I know they put more than 100 miles a day with their commutes (although probably not much more) but won't work when they drive to see the kids, or need to make a 20+ mile trip after work.

Every day American's won't be able to fully buy into it until they have the ability to "refuel/recharge" it in minutes, not hours. And in today's economy (or just in general) most people would not have two cars.

Then again, I live in a BIG state where commutes of 50 miles are common, there is no rail/bus/taxi system and cities are very spread out. I'm sure this would be MUCH more usable in a highly populated area like LA/Chicago/NY, etc.

-Rob

The airplane called: it wants it wings back.

kreb wrote:

Schmidlap wrote: What? That power to weight ratio is about the same as a 4 cylinder Honda Accord.... Bob

Er, did you notice the torque figures? Or forget that it's available at 0 RPM? Also, electric motors are rated at maximum continuous horsepower, while gas engines are rated at maximum output irrespective of longevity. That 110 hp electric motor could probably produce 350 HP for 20 seconds (although at 25 seconds you might have a smoldering heap of metal and insulation) edit: by the way, it has a cg of .11 Yep. No misprint.

Yeah I saw the torque figures, and I know how electric motors are supposed to be rated for continuous power, but this is an automotive company not an electric motor company and they didn't do it right. They are quoting maximum power and torque values, not continuous values (sorry, I should have said that in my first post).

Aptera Specs

And yes, I know that the peak torque is available at 0 RPM, but I also know that it only stays there for a portion of the max RPM and then drops off a cliff. The Aptera uses a Remy HVH250 motor Motor Specs which has peak torque from 0-3000 RPM, then drops off a cliff from 350N-m to only 50N-m at its 10000 RPM limit(for the example shown in the link). The Aptera uses a 6.7:1 reduction drive so an impressive 1554lb-ft of torque is making it to the wheels but if that's only until about 30mph and then it drops like a rock, is it that much better than an automatic with a 3:1 first gear, 3.5:1 final drive and a 1.5:1 torque converter? Probably a little better, but not enough for supercar like acceleration.

The aerodynamics numbers are damn impressive. 0.11! Wow, that is shocking.

Schmidlap wrote: Actually, I'm really curious how good the aerodynamics really are when compared with a normal car. Those wheels sticking out in the wind instead of integrated into the body will probably add quite a bit of drag.

From another article on the Aptera at http://www.autoblog.com/2010/04/14/aptera-2e-moves-forward-eyes-set-on-x-prize/#continued:

"Even with all these production-friendly changes, the coefficient of drag is still freakishly low – less than 0.15. To put that in perspective, a Prius's Cd is 0.25"

So it's no longer the .11 of the prototype, but .15 is still way better than a normal car.

As for safety and being treated as a motorcycle due to the 3 wheels, this quote is from the same article at Autoblog:

"While still technically classified as a motorcycle, the Aptera 2e will pass all of the more than 700 car safety standards required by the NHTSA. A motorcycle only has to pass 38. "

In other words, it's stronger than it looks.

Also, while this article was about the Aptera 2e, which is a pure electric car, they're also working on a hybrid version called the 2h.

Shoden wrote: "While still technically classified as a motorcycle, the Aptera 2e will pass all of the more than 700 car safety standards required by the NHTSA. A motorcycle only has to pass 38. " In other words, it's stronger than it looks.

Being a "motorcycle" also gets the car around bumper height and airbag regs which free up the design possibilities in the former instance and help keep the weight down in the latter.

Most electric drive systems have some type of launch control that limits throttle roll-on speed. In the olden days with trolleys and the like, they used sets of relays hooked to resistors. Nowadays, it's some kind of computer map. So even if you mash the throttle, it will accelerate at a preset maximum rate to help preserve the drivetrain.