Intro and Volvo P80 V70R advice

Hi all - I've been around for years, mostly just a magazine reader, and sometimes forum lurker.  Been through a string of fun cars: MG Midget, NA Miata, Audi B5S4, and currently an '06 Mustang GT. 

Mostly just spirited driving, with a few track days thrown in, along with crewing for my uncle for local road racing with NASA, SCCA, and vintage. Basic car lover and tinkerer like many on here. 
 

The Mustang is getting a little small in the rear seats for my 10 and 13 yr old sons, so I'm looking for a roomier option for a fun second/third car, and one that I can drive for fun year round. Not really looking for anyone to throw options at me - I usually find myself *drawn* to my next car, so I'm already focused on Volvo's at the moment. (And before anyone says Miata, I've been ther, done that, and will certainly do it again. But I need 4 roomy seats.)
 

I have been considering a Volvo P80 850R/V70R wagon for a while, and wanted some opinions from outside the dedicated Volvo forum lifers.  The forum guys are great, and a lot of my info comes from the Volvo forums, but I wanted a non-biased opinion. Where better than GRM?

I like quirky, unique cars, especially those with limited production - but I'm also cheap!  These Volvo seem to fit the bill on paper: meets my quirkiness requirements, but makes decent power/torque stock, very tunable, has some aftermarket support, good forum support, and used parts are plentiful/cheap. 
 

I'm not a racer, so I'm not concerned with max power and hypercar performance. What I want is a fun driver that my sons can learn to work on with me, and we can have some good memories with. Maybe even a track day or two for giggles. Plus it can haul lacrosse gear in style!
 

What say those who have owned or driven one of these turbo bricks in anger?  Can one of these be fun with regular bolt-on suspension/brake/exhaust/engine upgrades in my garage?  It seems that a decent P80 R (1995-2000) can be had for around $5k, and allow a few k more for some upgrades. 
 

Anxious to hear some of your thoughts. Thanks in advance!  Dustin 

I owned a '95 Volvo 850 wagon, NA, manual trans and really liked it even as NA. 

You mention you like "quirk" so I'm gonna suggest a quirky one I want... 

2010+ Infiniti M56. 

That's right 5.6 liters and 420 hp of rwd (or awd) truck engine in a generally non-descript 4 door sedan.  I had Infiniti Q45s and they were fun/inexpensive and I thought of them as 4 door Mustangs; but only 300 hp (like old Mustang GTs) but I want to try 420 hp (like newer Mustangs.) 

Full price sample $13k

$6k needs engine work. About half that asking price and this could be interesting? 

How common is engine trouble??? $5.5k

I previously owned a '97 855R and currently own a '98 V70 GLT (baby turbo). I know these cars pretty well. A few high points:

• Unless you buy one with a stack of paperwork from fastidious previous owners, plan on spending $1500-2500 to catch up all the deferred maintenance. At minimum, plan on a timing belt/water pump, PCV system, and replacement of ALL the rubber hoses on the car (there are two well-hidden turbo coolant hoses that often balloon and blow near 200k, which usually happens at full operating temp and takes out the engine).
• The FWD P80 models are SIGNIFICANTLY better supported by the aftermarket with a more sophisticated rear suspension, and the P80 AWD systems are fragile and don't hold up to being driven in anger. If anything resembling handling prowess or track duty is in consideration, skip the AWD models (including the V70R).
• The T5 models are 95% of the car that the R models are, and were actually available with a 5-speed manual in '98. The baby turbo GLT models can also be made very quick too as they have higher base compression. So don't feel like you have to hold out for an R.
• The AW50-42 4-speed auto transmissions in these are actually quite reliable and last forever with regular fluid changes, but can't handle much more than 300HP.
• If you plan to modify, '95-98 models are ideal. The '99-00 models have ME7 engine management, CANBUS electronics and the dreaded ETM; they're not unworkable, but stuff is just more difficult.
• You can make these very fast for not much money  (downpipe + exhaust + injectors + tune = wheeeeee), and stopping is easy as 302mm brakes from the 2000+ cars are a bolt-on upgrade.
• Making them handle is a little more difficult. Delrin subframe bushings and a strut tower brace should be the #1 order of business (and a C70 convertible subframe brace if you can find one), followed by shocks/struts/springs, and then sway bars. You may need to replace the rear delta link joints and bushings, which is a totally crappy job to do, but doesn't need to be done often.
• Generally they are pretty good cars; comfy and reasonably easy to work on. The interiors all fall apart though (850s are worse than V70s in this regard) and they have typical annoying inconveniences of any 90's European car (weird overly complicated climate control, disintegrating headlight harnesses, "what were they thinking" PCV design).
• Side note; IPD is a legendary vendor for the RWD bricks, but a lot of their FWD parts are hit-or-miss, so don't just order everything aftermarket from them with the assumption that it's good.

If you have any specific questions after all that let me know, I'd be happy to help.

My current and former P80s:

What they were thinking with PCV system was they needed a PCV system that basically could work with the engine idling, and also running under boost for hours.

I get a lot of Volvo parts from FCP Euro, in addition to ipd.  I have kind of a sour taste in my mouth from ipd for some things but they are also heavy Volvo supporters so sometimes you just gotta go there.

Thanks guys - great responses!  I've been down the P80 rabbit hole for a few months, and it's good to hear the familiar issues but nothing terrible. 
 

Pointofdeparture - nice rides!  I would be happy with either.  Something about them a little lowered with wheels just does it for me.

I have been leaning AWD V70R, mostly because I have the notion that the open FWD diff won't put down whatever power it has very well. Maybe I'm wrong.  How would you compare the AWD vs adding a limited slip diff to a FWD car for spirited driving?

I have considered T5 manuals, but I do also like the interior and cosmetic touches on the R cars.  It seems that a manual swap is not overly complicated, and beater/donor/parts cars are pretty cheap.

I have also been steering toward '98 and earlier to get the Motronic 4.4 ECU that is apparently easier to tune and it would be fun to learn some DIY tuning.

is it possible to DIY tune the Me7 ECU '99-'00 cars?

I guess my real challenge is FWD vs AWD - would love to hear some more testimonials on that.

I've never dealt with iPd, but recently asked why they don't have a rear sway bar for '98-'00 AWD cars.  Customer service said not enough marker demand so they stopped making them.  Disappointing.

i like FCP euro from my Saudi S4 days - good to deal with - I'll check them out.

thx!

John Welsh (Moderate Supporter) said:

2010+ Infiniti M56. 

 

 

My DD is a 2010 Infiniti M35x - so I just can't go there!  But nothing wrong with a 420hp luxury/comfy sedan!  
 

I just feel a need to turn up the quirk all the way to to Volvo. 

dustin_h said:

I have been leaning AWD V70R, mostly because I have the notion that the open FWD diff won't put down whatever power it has very well. Maybe I'm wrong.  How would you compare the AWD vs adding a limited slip diff to a FWD car for spirited driving?

The P80 AWD system is a very poor design; it's a primitive viscous coupling system that slams power to the rear wheels when the front slips. It's common for cars to trash the viscous coupling at stock power levels (failure to rotate tires frequently enough is all it takes to kill them) and the parts are now NLA along with some required driveshaft bits. Most "AWD" P80 cars are now FWD in operation due to viscous coupling failure.

Pretty much the only reason to actively seek out an AWD car is if you are a collector or have the kind of engineering curiosity that leads you to seek out interesting ideas that don't work well. In Europe where the P80 V70R was available in both FWD and AWD, the FWD models are more desirable (they also had a factory LSD over there).

The FWD P80 cars are just better, full stop. They're lighter, simpler, have better rear suspension, and there are proper performance suspension parts available for them. Volvo learned a lot of lessons from the deeply flawed P80 AWD when they built the P2s; if AWD is what you want, buy a P2 (preferably 04+).

is it possible to DIY tune the Me7 ECU '99-'00 cars?

My understanding is that it is possible but the community is not very open and there's not a lot of documentation on how to do it right. The well known tuners (Hilton, etc) make good money tuning ME7 and the attitude in the community seems to be "if you need to ask for help you shouldn't be doing this."

That kind of AWD/FWD insight is exactly what I was looking for.  If it's that fragile, I may just avoid it if it will end in years with a 300lb penalty to drag non-functional parts around. 

Interesting about the Volvo Me7 tuning. In the  B5 Audi community it's Me7 also, but totally different attitude. Good tunes are pretty freely shared.  I can appreciate that good pro tuners are protecting their livelihood. Just surprised that it hasn't been "cracked" and made public. But what do I know - it's all way over my head.

But I do hear that the Motronic 4.4 is pretty friendly to learn.  I think my boys would enjoy yhe laptop tuning - *almost* as good as Xbox, right? :-)

Plus the better delta link rear susp, leasweight, and more aftermarket support - it is adding up to a very pro-FWD argument. 

Finding a nice one may be a different story. Buy the longer it takes the more I learn!
 

Long time Volvo nerd here, dailied a 850 GLT for ~10 years.  Have had a lot of P80 and P2 platforms, and a few older RWD Swedes too.

Most of the key stuff has been covered.

Quaife makes an LSD for them, if you're worried about putting power down in a FWD.  That way you can just worry about torque steer.

PCV system isn't the nightmare the internet likes to make it out to be.  Sure it's a chore to service, but it's not like it's something you do every oil change.  An average shade tree wrench can swap out the whole PCV system in a lazy weekend, and still have time to grill, watch football, and take a nap. 

Another pain that I don't think anyone has mentioned are the rear delta link bushings, on the passive rear steering suspension.  Those are a pain in the ass, there are specialty tools for them, but you can DIY your own tool pretty easily. 

Whiteblock will last forever, change the oil at a rational interval, stick with a quality synthetic, and change the timing belt ever ~100K miles or 5 years.

The autos have a lifetime filter, but as have been pointed out already, change the fluid once in a while, it'll last a long time too.

Most of the aftermarket spark plug wires for the distributor ignition cars are junk.  Stick with OE or something with good reviews from FCP, I had crap luck with NGK wires.

Avoid Scantech aftermarket parts, mostly garbage.  Lemforder is the OE supplier for a lot of Volvo parts, good stuff, and parts in the Lemforder box are usually a lot cheaper than the same part in a pretty blue Volvo box.

There are poly bushing kits, if that's your thing.  I went to poly engine mounts, and went back to stock within 6 months, I didn't care for the extra vibrations.

There's some pictures of my old 850 in my profile here, I had it on slightly lower Eibachs and Konis, it wasn't a race car by any stretch of the imagination, but made for a very competent commuter.

I would argue that '06-up is where it's at if you decide to go for a P2, because IIRC (note could be wrong) they all went to a "precharged" type Haldex that can apply torque instantly when demanded, and not have to wait a moment for hydraulic pressure to build.  Plus the T5 model ('05-09) has essentially an upgraded P2R engine, although they also seem to be worth more on the used market.

Either way it is a much larger car than a P80 and a bit of a less direct driving experience.

The ME7 lack of info is pretty damned frustrating given how freely available info is for VWAG products on that architecture.

I just went through a few-month phase of owning an S70 T5M, which was purchased for the sake of a cheap-car challenge. Mine had a pile of miles (297k) but was very well-maintained and ran fine.

It was... so not my thing. Very comfy but the T5 cars are kind of a nothing-then-everything sort of driving experience as to how the boost builds. Makes 'em feel slow around town. One of the best factory sound systems I've heard in a car, especially from the '90s. Mine was a 1998 which had the cable throttle. They have a sort of semi-active rear steering setup that relies on bushing deflection, it's remarkably good through a corner for being over-powered FWD with an open diff.

Here's what I did ahead of the event:

https://outmotorsports.com/2020/08/volvo-s70-t5m-rallycross-challenge/

Here's how the event went:

https://outmotorsports.com/2020/09/we-put-six-cheap-grandma-cars-through-two-days-of-rallycross/

The car was WAY more fun in a rallycross situation where you can hammer on it and keep the boost up the whole time.

The manual transmission is über rare and people go gaga for them (seriously, I sold my S70 T5M for three grand) but I don't know if I'd say the manual adds to the driving experience that much.

We've been very happy with this V70R over the past year and a half. With that being said though, I couldn't imagine using it for track days as you had mentioned.

Here is a good (though rather hardcore) 850 wagon track car build thread that's a fun read: http://volvospeed.com/vs_forum/topic/165009-amazing-awaits-1995-850-lightweight-build-thread/

I lusted after this car when it went up for sale. Obviously you could do a lot of the same work but leave a real interior in place.

All great info guys - thanks!

Don't make too much of the track day thing, I spend a lot of time there (in non-Covid years) so it would just be for fun. 
 

What I'm after is a fun driver with comfortable room for 4, and an opportunity to tinker on it with my sone and play pretend racecar with some mods. But not real racecar - just a good look and fun to drive. 
 

I want something different but fun and unusual. And reasonable cheap. From what I have heard, I wouldn't expect to be too disappointed. Just looking to scratch this Volvo itch. 
 

Woody - your thread was great - hope your pup is still happy with it!

I used to work at a Volvo dealership in the early 2000s and have driven a TON of these cars.

I'm going to echo BrakeL8 a bit. The MT is not worth lusting over. It felt very meh in my opinion. It's one of the few cars that I'd probably actually say the auto is my preference. YMMV, of course, as the feel of a manual gearbox and clutch is pretty subjective.

I wanted an 850 a few years ago, but found it hard to find a nice one for a decent price. I still love them though.

In reply to CyberEric :

You're not the first to comment that the manual is less than thrilling. Plus the effort of the swap if I wanted MT in an R. 

I fear that I like the idea more than I would like the reality. 

Maybe a 240 wagon with a modern drivetrain swap. At least it would be RWD. And if it was easy, it wouldn't be fun. 
 

I 3rd (or 4th) the auto is the way to go. I would do a 740/940 if you want a RWD volvo track car. Cheaper than 240s, better suspension, probably less rusty. 

In reply to EvanB (Forum Supporter) :

I dig this. Would be a fun build

Very cool 240! 

Say, have you considered a Saab 900 turbo? Also quirky, also Swede.

In reply to CyberEric :

I like Saab 9-5 Aero Sportcombi even more. It's on the list for many of the same reasons. Especially the wagon-ness.  But a slight concern about the dead brand and potential future parts availability. Manuals are more common. Not sure of the manual quality though. 

If you want more fun I'd go with the older RWD Volvo's. Due to age it'll probably need more tinkering and they're WAY easier to work on than the FWD Volvos. Check out the turbobricks forum classifieds.

I was actually looking for a 760 or V90 when I found my V70R. Those cars came with an all aluminum, 3 liter 24 valve dohc straight six and rear wheel drive. Hard to find though, and they demand a premium when you do.

Expanding on Woody's post, that was called a 960 until '96 when they changed the name to S/V90 for its last couple years of existance.

Also, the T6 trim level of the 1st gen S80 & XC90 used a twin turbo version of the same I6 mounted transversely, so there's an OE path to get a turbo I6 under the hood of your 960 or V90. 

This is in a 240, but you get the idea.

Not sure the twin turbo parts fit a longitudinal engine.

Either way, the inline six was a slow, leaky turd, was mated to an automatic that suffered electrically from the engine always leaking oil all over it, and they had an independent rear suspension that sucked.  Every one I saw had an inoperative speedometer because when the VSS fails, you have to comprehensively dismantle the rear suspension for access.  Friends don't let friends buy IRS rear drive Volvos.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

I wouldn't bother keeping the twins.  I'd be mixing and matching parts from a T6, building a log manifold, and using a single GT35 or similar.  I'm making a bit of an assumption here, I know way more about the I5s than the I6s, but the turbo I5s got sodium field valves and stouter rods than the NA I5s.  I assume the same is true of the I6.  NA I5 cams have more lift than turbo I5 cams, if the same is true of the I6, I'd be using the T6 long block with NA cams, and building my own little Swedish 1JZ.

I've thought about it a lot, researched it some, but have no real world experience with the NA B6304S.  Dad had a T6 S80 though, hell of a GT car, deceptively quick, when it wasn't murdering transmissions.