Is heel and toe a deal killer on a street car?

I say yes.  The V6 MG is a blast but something more current with a roof and a stick would be a better choice for me.  Drove a 2021 Corolla SE 6 speed, had many nice things but durn it I can't heel and toe downshifts because the pedals are wrong.  My ankle will just barely flex to do it instead of a nice comfortable motion.  I know I don't need to but it is fun.  So is shifting without the clutch once in a while but wasn't bringing that up on a test drive.  

So how many of you out there know how and have a decent econobox that allows it?  Keep going back the the Civic SI, might be the best choice.

It's the norm to have to fit oversized pedals to enable heel-and-toe downshifts, especially on non-sporty cars or even lower-end sports cars, so don't think of it as an immutable feature of a car. I've made changes to the pedals on my AE92 and Toyobaru for this reason. The Samurai's pedal spacing was hopeless so I use a reverse heel-toe technique with that.

I'd imagine that cars like the Corolla and Civic Si would have enough of an aftermarket that there's a solution there.

If you're going used, I'd also add in two cars from Hyundai:

• Elantra Sport: I don't remember the exact year range (2019-ish, I think), but the could be had with a 6-speed manual. On paper, it was comparative to the Civic Si
• Elantra GT N-Line: Similar experience, but in hatchback form. I drove one equipped with the DCT a few years and had a blast. I can only imagine the manual makes it more fun.

I've been able to do it decently in every car I've driven with the exception of a 2000ish Tacoma (and an air cooled 911 with the seat positioned for someone 6" shorter than me). Modern cars tend to have softer brake pedals with longer pedal travel. If you're braking hard, the pedals will probably line up pretty well; if you're rolling up to a stop with basically no pedal pressure, probably not so much. Start working on that ankle mobility I guess.

Maybe because I taught myself to heel/toe wrong, but I've never met a car I can't do it in. I heel/toe my XJ even

Most oem TBW tuning is too slow for satisfying heel toe use anyways.

I don't think there's a right or wrong way to do it, generally. Just do what works. I also find it easier when the brake pedal is resting squarely on (or near) the floor and I can just rotate my foot over to the accelerator pedal nearby.

Edit: To answer the OP's question, no, I don't think it's a deal killer. If I like the car enough, I'll figure out something to make it work.

I have bent the throttle pedal on nearly every car I have owned. just be careful to not break any plastic brackets if bending a metal pedal. Plastic pedal needs an added on piece, all doable.

i have never learned how to heal toe appropriately and rarely find my ability to drive stick on the street lacking.  On track it sucks because I have to slip the clutch out slower when downshifting (I purchased a autoblip to help /w this for next season) but on the street, if I need to downshift its generally to accelerate so I can just blip the throttle with my foot on downshift and on braking, i rarely need the mechanical advantage of a lower gear.  

I figure out whatever motion is needed for heel toe. I have big feet and flexible ankles so that probably helps.

It's important to me, but probably not a deal killer.

My E46 was the nicest stock heel-and-toer I've ever owned.  Shifting it was effortless.  My Neon ACR was pretty good, too.  Oddly enough, my worst is the Miata.

New Toyotas solve this with a magic button labeled "iMT".  On my new GR Corolla I can absolutely heel and toe downshift, but I never bother because the computer can do a better job than me.  Clutch in while braking, apply pressure on the gear shift toward the gear you want, the computer rev matches perfectly and it drops right into gear.  It does require a bit of pause with the gear lever toward your desired gear, but you should do that anyway to be nice to the synchros.  I think Toyota is including this on all the new manual transmissions?  I know both the Corolla and the Tacoma have it.

And no, it's not a deal breaker for me.  I have a heck of a time heel and toeing my 2020 Tacoma (which doesn't have iMT), so I just don't.  It's fine.  It's a truck.

I made a wood spacer that I bolted to the throttle pedal on my c6 to let me heel-toe.  
It's not the prettiest but i never even think  about it. 
 

I've found I have more of a problem with rev hang than pedal placement.  But to be fair, I probably learned to compensate over time in vehicles with poor pedal placement so it's likely a similar situation with rev hang and my time with that vehicle was just too short since it wasn't mine.

In reply to jfryjfry :

I like it.

My dad did a similar mod to our 1946 Farmall so my feet could reach the brakes and clutch (throttle was a "grab bar" operated by hand up by the steering wheel).  
The good/not so good ol' days.

In reply to jfryjfry :

A little bit of wood stain, and you could probably sell those for a pretty penny. 

In reply to Coniglio Rampante :

Huh, what?  Rev hang is only going to hurt you on upshifts, not downshifts.  If anything, it would help you on downshifts so you wouldn't have to blip as much.

I'll note that while the rev hang is terrible on my 2020 Tacoma and was bad on my 2017 Focus RS, it's non-existent on my 2024 GR Corolla, so I think at least Toyota is getting better at hitting the emissions targets without it.

Two things- Many modern cars will close the throttle when the brake pedal is applied, and thats what synchros are for.  Jam that berkeleyer into second and snap the clutch up to get that fwd thing to rotate mid corner.

Don't worry about tearing the center out of the clutch disc, that I only did once in my IT Neon...

It wouldn't be a deal killer for me knowing I can add pedal covers or adjust the height of the accelerator.

I used some scrap part from work long ago to add just *that much* to the throttle pedal. According the brochure the pedals should be ideally situated but my heal clips the edge.

In reply to Berck :

Yeah, as I said I only spent a very short time with the car (just drove it a matter of minutes for a friend/owner) and it has been the only experience I've had with car with that trait.  I'm quite sure if I spent more time driving it, I would have learned not to blip the throttle as much as I was conditioned to do.  At least that's what I think I was doing wrong.  I can accept user error.

Streetwiseguy said:

Two things- Many modern cars will close the throttle when the brake pedal is applied, and thats what synchros are for.  Jam that berkeleyer into second and snap the clutch up to get that fwd thing to rotate mid corner.

Don't worry about tearing the center out of the clutch disc, that I only did once in my IT Neon...

I don't think any car in existence cuts throttle the instant you touch both pedals. You usually get at least a full second or more, more than enough time for a downshift blip.

In reply to dps214 :

Many new cars actually do cut the throttle instantly, you just don.t notice. Many new automatics will not let you left foot brake with power on at all, E class AMG I drove for sure would not. That is a deal breaker for me.

Well then newer cars are out for me.  This is a purely emotional thing, from my first VW on I like to heel and toe once in a while.  On the bug it was because when cold it wouldn't idle so I had to blip and keep it in a gear or it would stall.  Now it is just fun.

So I guess anything with drive by wire is out, thats OK.  And yes I have made spacers or tweaked things for good pedal placement.  The Opel Gt was the best, actually had an adjustment to set brake pedal height.

Thanks for all the input, I will try out an Elantra sometime.

porschenut said:

On the bug it was because when cold it wouldn't idle so I had to blip and keep it in a gear or it would stall.  Now it is just fun.

That's what taught me to heel/toe too. My first car, ACVW, idled like poo for the first minutes so I had to learn from the getgo how to not stall pulling out of the highschool parking lot. 

porschenut said:

So I guess anything with drive by wire is out

This is a bit of an over-reach. The conclusion I draw from this thread is that your mileage may vary. I have had no issues with modern cars, including my '23 Tacoma. You just have to adapt your technique to whatever you are driving, and this means also changing how you move your foot. For some cars, I roll my foot such that I am basically braking with my big toe and blipping with my pinky toe. For most, I am pivoting on my toes and blipping with my heel. For some, it depends on how hard I am braking. 

With DBW, you typically just have to give it a more deliberate stab than cable throttles. But that goes back to just figuring out what the car wants.