Is it possible...

Why The vw engine, I can't imagine that it + turbo is cheaper or n anyway better than an ej20

Type 4 (from a 914 or 912, you do not want the bus version) with a Porsche 901 trans will net you around 150hp easily with cams, carbs, and exhaust. The 901 will easily handle it AND give you 5 speeds.

If you cannot find a 901 trans.. a transmission out of a bus (low geared) or a 411/412 will do nicely

EJ20 puts out around 200hp.

HiTemp, you know where they pull the engine values from? I seem to remember car-part.com, but wouldn't swear to it.

If car-part IS the place to find values, the EJ would put me about $150 over the value limit, assuming the judges would take the lowest listed values rather than an average of the listed values.

Yeah, but why? Where is the advantages of that set up?

ej20 turbo right now $650, way more power too

The VW engines mean you don't have to faff about with a cooling system that can handle something like an EJ20.

JohnInKansas wrote: HiTemp, you know where they pull the engine values from? I seem to remember car-part.com, but wouldn't swear to it.

Again, a lot of it is left up to them. If you are a convincing enough individual AND they believe you, any source should work as long as you provide enough examples.

BoxheadTim wrote: The VW engines mean you don't have to faff about with a cooling system that can handle something like an EJ20.

The cooling system isnt that difficult and the reliability and power far outweigh the extra effort.

Cooling system wouldn't be that hard.

I don't feel like reliability would be that much of an issue, assuming I did a really good shakedown before running it. What kind of reliability issues are you going to find on a VW that you wouldn't also run into with the Subaru?

Same deal with power. The turbo version of the EJ20 seems to be what we got stateside (JDM also had NA and twin turbos). If you were to put a comparable turbo setup on the VW, I would think you could expect to match the power of the Subaru. The 850 set up for drag racing on the previous page is a turbo Type 1 making upwards of 300hp. EJ20 turbo in stock trim is around 200.

I don't know the Subaru engine. Show me how it is a better choice. If its really better, maybe that's the way to go and just absorb the penalty laps. At $150 over the $500 limit, that would be 10-15 laps, but again, its pretty much at the judges' discretion.

JohnInKansas wrote: I don't know the Subaru engine. Show me how it is a better choice. If its really better, maybe that's the way to go and just absorb the penalty laps. At $150 over the $500 limit, that would be 10-15 laps, but again, its pretty much at the judges' discretion.

Once again, you are WAY underestimating. They also include the fab time required to put the motor into the car and make it run. Like, you are looking at 50+ penalty laps. What you are suggesting is GREAT for a GRM Challenge build, but not for chump car.

Lemons might let you in and appreciate your work. The only way you are getting this car into Chump without penalties is via a mild engine swap and suspension work.

Put a direct drive LSx in the back, it should fit, and provide wicked power. You could replace that with an LT1.

JohnInKansas wrote: Cooling system wouldn't be that hard. I don't feel like reliability would be that much of an issue, assuming I did a really good shakedown before running it. What kind of reliability issues are you going to find on a VW that you wouldn't also run into with the Subaru? Same deal with power. The turbo version of the EJ20 seems to be what we got stateside (JDM also had NA and twin turbos). If you were to put a comparable turbo setup on the VW, I would think you could expect to match the power of the Subaru. The 850 set up for drag racing on the previous page is a turbo Type 1 making upwards of 300hp. EJ20 turbo in stock trim is around 200. I don't know the Subaru engine. Show me how it is a better choice. If its really better, maybe that's the way to go and just absorb the penalty laps. At $150 over the $500 limit, that would be 10-15 laps, but again, its pretty much at the judges' discretion.

I'll just use the Wartburg for an example. Forget EJ20, I just run a non turbo EJ22 in it, stock 135 hp. First off the torque curve when combined with the gearing in a VW transaxle is awesome.

I used to race Solo Vees, and yes I could get 135 hp out of a type 1 motor....however I can get EJ22s for about $100-$200 all day long. To build a Type 1 aircooled that will hold 135hp reliably out on a race track will start around $1500 and go up from there rather quickly.

It's not a debate of can you get the power and reliability from a VW motor it's a matter of it costing alot more to get the same results that you can get for peanuts, and (very important in crapcan racing) to give you an engine you can grab parts for at the local autozone or a whole replacement engine from a junkyard on a saturday afternoon if you blow up. Most junkyards dont have old VWs with running engines in them anymore. If you want a good idea of what a solid reliable 300+ hp VW motor will run you (using a Type 4 because it has a better chance of holding together than a Type 1) check out http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/ They build some of the best high powered aircooled motors out there right now.

You will not get either Type 1 or Type 4 VW motors into the 200 hp range of an EJ20 by just "slapping a turbo" on them.

The subie also gets you fuel injection, the benefits of which for both reliability and tuning in a turbo application are pretty obvious. Remember if you want to turbo that VW now you have to upgrade your carburation too, that will cost more than the budget for a Lemons/Chump car.

Based on how the Wartburg, a much heavier car, ran with just an EJ22 at Summit Point in Lemons I would expect an 850 with the same motor to be an absolute terror out there and more than fast enough to annihilate almost anything on that track as long as it can handle well.

nevermind, i had in my head the 2012 budget, nit chump/lemons, but weren't you talking about a type 4 engine, turbo and megasquirt? I can't see that happening for under $500.

I'm willing to bet that VW engine in that fiat is $4000 minimum.

I won't disagree with you outright, HiTemp, but that's not how the rules read. I know they will place values on parts used to put the engine in (engine mounts, transmission mounts, etc); if it can be made in the garage of an average home mechanic, it is valued at cost of materials. If it requires specialty high-dollar equipment, it is valued at fair market value of similar components sold by retailers. I don't see anything in the rules regarding time spent installing/fabricating/fitting. That would be a BEAST for them to try to place a value on at tech.

Assuming a $650 value on the engine and a $0 value on the car ("worthless crapcan" with a drivetrain that does not provide a "competitive advantage"), you're estimating the installation of the drivetrain and any suspension updates will add another $350+.

If the Launcha Splatos can swap the entire front subframe and driveline from an Alfa into the back of their Fiat X1/9 and not get raped on penalty laps (and they don't, as they tend to finish pretty far up the list), I don't see where an 850 with a comparably-powered swap would get brutalized in tech.

Thanks JT, that's the explanation I was after. None of this is going to be anywhere near as easy to do as it is to type on an internet forum, there will be lots of time/effort/research/blood/sweat/tears invested, and the outcome will almost undoubtedly be less than spectacular.

Car-part has EJ22s listed from $300. That's easier to stomach, and should help get me below HiTemp's estimated installation cost.

Yeah, this is for Chump, but I suppose could be run in Challenge pending budget. Chump budget is based on tech-assessed value rather than actual expenditures. The team I drive with now has WAY more than $500 in the Alfa we run, but the value is still around $600, so we only get a few penalty laps.