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irish44j
irish44j MegaDork
7/9/19 7:59 p.m.
Harvey said:

If everyone's property down there is in some respect covered in debris, rundown or has various vehicles and or pieces of equipment slowly rotting on some portion then I withdraw my contention that the OP should clean up his act.

The law is too broadly written. The several times aforementioned county ordinance is closer to where things should be at, you should be able to do pretty much whatever you want in your garage other than run a full spray booth.

woudl be interesting to know if any of these other junky-yard people got citations too. 

Harvey
Harvey GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/10/19 7:49 a.m.
irish44j said:
Harvey said:

If everyone's property down there is in some respect covered in debris, rundown or has various vehicles and or pieces of equipment slowly rotting on some portion then I withdraw my contention that the OP should clean up his act.

The law is too broadly written. The several times aforementioned county ordinance is closer to where things should be at, you should be able to do pretty much whatever you want in your garage other than run a full spray booth.

woudl be interesting to know if any of these other junky-yard people got citations too. 

 

I guess it depends on whether their junky rundown stuff is violating some ordinance. The OP claims that the Grumpies have a messy backyard with a bunch of junk in it behind a deteriorating fence. We've seen a pic of what he claims is one of his neighbors with a bunch of junker cars gathering dust.

Apparently having a bunch of junk on your property is not a violation of anything in this area otherwise the OP could just fire back with his own calls to the town.

If we give the OP the benefit of the doubt on his claims about the neighbors then the law as enforced is actually more ridiculous than I first thought, since it essentially is penalizing the guy trying to repair stuff using the junk in his yard versus the guy just collecting cars and other junk to let them sit and rot.

STM317
STM317 UltraDork
7/10/19 9:54 a.m.

In reply to Harvey :

It seems like it's only enforced when another citizen complains about something, rather than anytime a code enforcement person sees something that might violate the regulation.

That probably means that all these other people with junk just do a better job of not pissing off their neighbors than the OP does.

nimblemotorsports
nimblemotorsports Reader
7/10/19 10:10 a.m.

Another website picks up the story,

https://driving.ca/auto-news/news/county-in-california-makes-it-almost-illegal-to-repair-your-car-at-home

I have been emailing to all the newspapers, magazines in sacramento. 

I am now considering the tack that Auto Part stores must post a warning sign saying it is Illegal to Repair your car in Sacramento County.

So far no County Supervisor has responded to my emails.

 

btw, i have been researching into this kind of thing, and it is amazing how bad code enforcement can get,

Oakland was so bad the state courts had to step in.

https://pacificlegal.org/a-win-for-property-owners-throughout-california/

Harvey
Harvey GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/10/19 12:51 p.m.
STM317 said:

In reply to Harvey :

It seems like it's only enforced when another citizen complains about something, rather than anytime a code enforcement person sees something that might violate the regulation.

That probably means that all these other people with junk just do a better job of not pissing off their neighbors than the OP does.

Yes, it's a bit odd, because at one point the OP stated that part of the citation was for unregistered cars and junk...

 

The original complaint was about unregistered cars, major repairs, and junk.  Frankly, there was justification for all my junky cars in plain view

 

Did everyone else on the block get cited for junk and unregistered cars?

If the people that complained are seriously sitting on a mound of junk and unregistered cars I'd definitely go full bore retaliatory strike even just to see if the law is enforced the same way.

NOT A TA
NOT A TA Dork
7/10/19 2:57 p.m.

Most of the populated areas of the country have laws, rules, ordinances, etc. such as the one being discussed that have been in place for a long time. Seems kinda odd to me that more of the members here aren't familiar with them since we're more likely to be the ones cited for violations, I for one have been cited in the past more than once and admit I currently violate several.  Play the game, take the risk, get caught, pay the price. I've had several roles in the game.

Get a fine here and think you're not going to pay because you're mad that you didn't know the rules? They'll put it on your water bill and guess what happens if you still don't pay?

Writing laws, rules, ordinances, codes, or whatever you want to call them isn't easy because if you make them specific too many people will be in violation and if too lax you'll end up with neighbors fighting. So the rules are written vaguely to allow the code enforcement people to use their judgment. They can tell the difference between someone running a business and other people just doing work for themselves, friends, relatives, or as a hobby. That includes many other things besides automotive.

Most code enforcement departments have more potential "work" than than they could handle (if they went after every offender) because they have to take care of all kinds of things, not just automotive stuff. So they're not out actively looking for infractions EXCEPT in certain areas when there are extenuating circumstances that some one or a particular group consider as a justifiable reason to cite infractions in the area.  A section where slum lords do as little maintenance as possibly for maximum return on investment while the area deteriorates would be an example if lets say a group of tenants puts in a complaint. Another example would be if the developer building the new homes in the other recent thread went to the proper gov. officials and asked that codes be enforced in the whole area where they're building the new more expensive homes. 

It's very hard to write something that keeps people from running auto repair shops out of their home garage without keeping people who fix their own cars and hobbyists from being able to do what they want to do without creating a lot more work for government people to monitor whats going on. Not just automotive but other things as well. So,  vague rules were written at some point which aren't enforced by actively trying to identify violators with code enforcement people given the power to make a decision when there's a complaint. Typically a complaint is only made when there's active gross violation of some type so if they show up most offenders aren't really surprised. Yes there are exceptions where one neighbor is mad at another or someone is trying to maximize the selling  price of a nearby property but as a general rule of thumb the system works.

If you (members here in general) keep your yard, home, vehicles, etc. that can be seen from the street or by neighbors at or above the aesthetic level of the nicest neighbors properties it's very unlikely you'll get complaints unless you make a lot of noise or create unfavorable odors when most folks are home. Respect your neighbors, treat them as you'd like them to treat you. If you hear them having a kids birthday party on the other side of the fence it's probably not a good time to fire up a chain saw & log splitter even though that was your plan for the day, even though there's no rule against it.  Maybe even go over and ask when the party will be over explaining what you'd planned and saying if it's till dark you'll just do it another day so you don't annoy them. Courtesy goes a looooong way over time.

Speaking of fences when I was in design school I had a class one semester dedicated to barriers. The professor's motto was "Good fences make good neighbors".  If you're (forum members in general) gonna keep a bunch of crap in your yard most people wouldn't want to look at routinely, then do something so they don't have to look at it. A wall, fence, hedge, trees, topography changes, or whatever it takes so neighbors don't have to look at your crap on a regular basis goes a long way toward good relations with them for those of us who kinda disobey some rules. If you're putting up a fence consult them on opinions of type, style, color, etc. Same thing with plant materials or whatever. It lets them know you realize they have to look at it forever and are considerate. If two or more neighbors have differing opinions then have a neighborly meeting of the minds for a compromise. Takes you off the hook for putting up something that wasn't their first choice and they'll probably never complain about your crap even though they may know it's behind the fence and not allowed by zoning or other regulations. They're also less likely to complain if you do other things some might find a nuisance like say painting a car.

I have 6 vehicles and a 24" enclosed trailer on my 1/3 acre in a subdivision of single family homes with only one vehicle tagged, no complaints because you can't see most of the unregistered ones from road or neighbors and the one unregistered project I do have in the driveway always has a cover on it. Front yard is above average appearance compared with neighbors and no parts etc. can be seen from street. Car cover gets replaced before it's a tattered mess blowing around to keep up appearances. Yes I'm violating one or more local codes and if I got a notice from the city I'd still be grateful for the time I already got over the past 14 years.

I have a BS in City Planning, I've been a member of the city zoning board of appeals, I've been cited and paid fines, I've put in complaints, and I've talked to neighbors on a  "you need to fix this situation or" type of basis as well as "I'm going to do .... and would like your opinion".  I'm regularly in contact code enforcement people in my current city for various other reasons so I know the inside office people as well as outside personnel. The current code enforcement officer for my neighborhood is a car guy like us and knew who I was before he held the position because I used to work on his aunts Corvette so he stops by to see what I'm working on occasionally.  I get no special treatment, and if a complaint gets put in about me I'll get cited. Currently pondering the best time to put my car trailer in my driveway for repairs because I know it'll take longer than trailers are allowed to be in the driveway. Rule is primarily to keep neighborhoods from being filled up with boats, jet skis, landscape trailers, etc. but my enclosed also falls under "Trailers". It's a good rule IMO even though it makes things a bit more difficult for me.

If you guys think the rules being discussed here get people fired up you should see what happens at city meetings when sometimes millions of dollars are involved.

To the OP, my suggestion would be to pay your fine, stop creating a disturbance with various media, stop contacting gov. officials, clean up your current violations, and "crawl back under the rock" so to speak while things blow over. Just let things quiet down a while, don't keep stirring the pot. They're not going to drastically change the rules because you think they should. If you keep irritating the neighbors and gov. people you're gonna become "that guy" which won't help you in any way, then eventually you'd need to move to do the things you'd like to do. Consider selling some of your "projects" and use the money freed up to screen off your property from public as well as neighbors view. Selling some or all the projects would be very liberating. They're a "weight" you may not realize you're carrying till they're gone.  I've BTDT in the past. After a good while has gone by and you've put up visual barriers then consider what project to do. Good luck with whatever you do!

 

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
7/10/19 4:01 p.m.

In reply to nimblemotorsports :

This doesn't look like you want to live amicably with the neighbors and authorities.  This looks like you are enjoying the attention and over-sensationalized drama created by your exaggeration.

You are not helping car buffs.  You are making it a lot harder on us.

Kreb
Kreb GRM+ Memberand UberDork
7/10/19 4:09 p.m.

In reply to nimblemotorsports :

I've lived in Oakland for 25 years, and while the government is in equal parts corrupt and incompetent, they have never given me an iota of grief about my cars. Stay on topic.

egnorant
egnorant SuperDork
7/10/19 5:42 p.m.

Heard about this again on Rush Limbaugh show today!

 

Yes, I have had dealings with code enforcement over my automotive habits. I first had to fight the original ordinance that was horrible. Got something reasonable passed and tried to be a non-outlaw.

Then I got "The Letter" telling me I was in violation of code ordinance 2303 or whatever the number was. Was informed that I had 10 days to correct the situation or I could be fined up to $2000 per day. I had to got to the courthouse to look up the ordinance. I begged for the particulars so I could be sure I took enough action to satisfy the ordinance and got nowhere.

I got to work building a privacy fence and moving or disposing of the offending vehicles. I got it to my best interpretation of the law with 3 days to spare and asked that the ordinance officer inspect the premises to insure I was in accordance. I was actually told that I would find out if it was up to snuff if I failed to get a notice for court!!

I felt this would leave me open to someone inspecting 10 days after the deadline and suddenly I have 10 days of fines. This spurred me into being an irritant in the courthouse for many days and on day 15 after the notice I cornered the mayor and the enforcement officer and got them to agree to inspect and inform me if I was a criminal.

She was mad so she burned a trail the 3 blocks to my house and promptly pulled into my driveway, drive 100 feet or so to park IN MY YARD! I yelled at her to get off my lawn and back on public right of way like the law states and she climbs on top of her truck, taking pictures of 2 cars behind my shop that are shielded from the road by a 7 foot privacy fence and 15 foot of foliage. I started taking video of her shouting all the violations she could see while parked in my yard and standing on her truck when she jumped down and took off, digging a rut in my yard.

I followed her back to the courthouse where she proclaimed to the mayor that I was still in violation and they should proceed with fines and other legal avenues.

I quietly informed the mayor that he needs a lawyer in here now to settle this. Told the ordinance officer I needed her initial report to the city along with any records relating to my case. I was met with some resistance until I started quoting the law, showed the mayor the video and showed him of 2 local cases where the city was sued for up to $250,000 for overzealous ordinance prosecution. I told him we could settle it now or later in court as I was riled up and the lawyer soon showed up.

I was a complete ass to the lawyer as he tried to bully while I demanded the initial report and all paperwork as a starting point. I finally showed him a bit of the video and he paled a bit and left to tell the officer to get the paperwork.

Found out the original report simply stated that my address was in violation of the ordinance with no specifics as to which vehicles were in violation. Also the report was filed 4 days after she started work and the start date for my 10 days was one week after she started. Law stated that these conditions must exist for 30 days before they constitute a violation.

Lawyer told me that I was currently not in violation and the matter would be dropped, but I insisted on a letter stating this as a paper trail is everything.

She had also targeted a former mayors Mom for a perfectly legal car that she just no longer drove, a county commissioner for a tractor in an open front shed (Hey, it didn't have an inspection sticker!), guy who owns several town businesses and had his collector car on a trailer (again fully legal).

I got snarky by asking the mayor how much the job of code enforcement officer paid as it was clear that the current officer was incompetent, overzealous and just plain stupid and would get the city sued for millions within the month! Mayor, who had backed way up, told me that he would review and handle all her activities, past and present, to insure that she did her job properly. But he could not get rid of her as she was part of a new 3 year program that paid her salary 100% the first year, 50% the second year and 25% the third year. We were stuck with her for 3 years at least. Not sure how everything worked out, but I think she was told to go home and get paid while doing nothing.

Bruce

 

 

 

Toebra
Toebra Dork
7/11/19 12:03 a.m.
STM317 said:

In reply to Harvey :

It seems like it's only enforced when another citizen complains about something, rather than anytime a code enforcement person sees something that might violate the regulation.

This is not actually true. 

 

They have people that drive around looking for violations and writing citations, in Sacramento County anyway.  I don't know how they do it where you live.

 

I have personally called the code enforcement crew about a grocery store across the street from my office to complain about their failure to secure the dumpster where they throw out food, as is required by the law.  Before calling them, our property manager spoke to the manager of the store.  I have called code enforcement several times.  Been over a month, still have urban campers getting food out of the dumpster, coming across the street to the nice grassy area in front of the building where my office is, having a little picnic, leaving trash and rotting food.  My office manager has called to complain about boat trailers in front of her house for weeks, junk cars parked on the street for a long time, nothing.  People next door to her probably have 50 cats, if you count all the kittens, sorry, nothing we can do.  They don't respond in a reasonable amount of time to legit complaints about matters of public health, and I know people who have been cited for stuff that is fairly ridiculous.

 

Code enforcement is a capricious nightmare of revenue generation. 

 

dropstep
dropstep UltraDork
7/11/19 2:40 a.m.

While I read all this and would like to just blame California these laws tend to spread. I live in a small town in the middle of nowere Ohio that actually has a few similiar laws. I've violated a few but have never had an issue because my neighbors didn't complain. I hope this law at least gets reworded and less wide sweeping terms. 

Opti
Opti Dork
7/11/19 8:18 a.m.

 

Saw this on Facebook this morning. Even if it's a little click-baitey and some considered blown out of proportion, I'm still glad it's getting spread

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
7/11/19 8:31 a.m.

^It basically mirrors the title of this thread.

Kreb
Kreb GRM+ Memberand UberDork
7/11/19 9:46 a.m.

One other item of note: This is not "California" any more than dumbass Mustang guy is "Car guys". This is one corner of our sometimes misguided, but generally great state.

Toebra
Toebra Dork
7/11/19 10:57 a.m.

The problem is not so much that it is "one corner" of this once great state.  It is the corner at the controls of this once great state.

Harvey
Harvey GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/11/19 12:22 p.m.

Oof, we're on Rush now?

AaronBalto
AaronBalto Reader
7/11/19 3:07 p.m.

You guys need to move to Baltimore! We barely have laws at all!

minivan_racer
minivan_racer UberDork
7/11/19 3:34 p.m.
Opti said:

 

Saw this on Facebook this morning. Even if it's a little click-baitey and some considered blown out of proportion, I'm still glad it's getting spread

It's being spread across a bunch of groups and since there is no link to the source people aren't educating themselves on the situation.

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
7/11/19 4:05 p.m.

dollyman.. all over again.

 

https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3880087

 

http://www.offroaders.com/news/Dolly-Man-Audi-Booted-APS.htm

I'll bet most people have nearly the same laws in their local codes.  I live in a semi rural area and my buddy just got busted because his yard trailer was visible from rhe road.  Apparently, He's had it there for years and only had a neighbor complain and therefore caused the grief..

 

irish44j
irish44j MegaDork
7/11/19 4:11 p.m.
 

These laws are everywhere, but of course people like Rush will get fired up calling it a "liberal plot to destroy freedom" or something dumb like that because this case is in California, and everything in Cali is evil according to Rush and his fans.. I'm not sure what that means to say - people who like "freedom" and/or conservatives are ok with living in dumpy/trashy neighborhoods? I'm betting the neighborhood Limbaugh himself lives in probably allows a hell of a lot less "freedom" than Sacramento when it comes to junk cars and yard appearance, lol...

 

irish44j
irish44j MegaDork
7/11/19 4:15 p.m.
minivan_racer said:
Opti said:

 

 

Saw this on Facebook this morning. Even if it's a little click-baitey and some considered blown out of proportion, I'm still glad it's getting spread

It's being spread across a bunch of groups and since there is no link to the source people aren't educating themselves on the situation.

What do you mean "educate?" I thought all memes on the internet told the whole story, truthfully! devil

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
7/11/19 4:35 p.m.
Harvey said:

Oof, we're on Rush now?

time to burn it all down and start again.....  Nothing gold can stay.  smiley

Boost_Crazy
Boost_Crazy HalfDork
7/11/19 9:00 p.m.

In reply to NOT A TA :

It's very hard to write something that keeps people from running auto repair shops out of their home garage without keeping people who fix their own cars and hobbyists from being able to do what they want to do without creating a lot more work for government people to monitor whats going on.

 

So we should have over reaching laws and we should suspend due process, because- proving people break reasonable laws is too hard? And we as a people should just keep our months shut and out heads down, hoping not to draw the attention of the man? You know, they have places in the world like that. This isn’t supposed to be one of them. 

There are laws against running a business out of your garage.

There are laws against running a business without a license. 

There are laws governing the disposal of hazardous waste. 

What is so hard about enforcing those laws? The whole innocent until proven guilty, due process thingy? How inconvenient! 

Try your logic with just about any other crime. 

“My neighbor looks like a thief. He’s poor but has nice stuff. He must be a thief. I didn’t see a crime, and all the ‘evidence’ is circumstantial, but we don’t want thieves in our neighborhood.” Take him away, let him prove he’s not a thief. 

Lord help the innocent guy that looks like a pedophile. 

Boost_Crazy
Boost_Crazy HalfDork
7/11/19 9:44 p.m.

In reply to SVreX :

 

In reply to nimblemotorsports :

This doesn't look like you want to live amicably with the neighbors and authorities.  This looks like you are enjoying the attention and over-sensationalized drama created by your exaggeration.

You are not helping car buffs.  You are making it a lot harder on us.

 

His lot has been cleaned. He was in the process of building fences/ redoing a barn. The complaints of his neighbor have little to do with the code that we are talking about, other than it was the tool the neighbor used against him. As reported, his neighbor made no attempt to live amicably with him. In should land, this would have happened...

Neighbor: Mr. Nimble... can you please tend to your yard? I hate to complain, but your stuff is creeping right up to my fence. I’d really appreciate it if you could tidy it up a bit, maybe move some of your stuff to another part of your yard. I’d be happy to lend a hand if you need it. 

Mr. Nimble: I’m so sorry neighbor. I’ve got a lot of work to do, and I’ve fallen a bit behind. I’m redoing the barn and building a fence. Sorry for the mess, but I’ll get it taken care of. Can you give me a couple weeks? Then I’ll have everything back in the barn or behind the new fence. 

Neighbor: “Great, let me know if I can lend a hand.”

 

Now, Nimble, the neighbor, or both of them could be complete shiny happy people, I wasn’t there. But neither were you. Even if they were, it doesn’t diminish this thread one bit. Because that code exists. The code referenced isn’t exaggerated, it’s in black and white. I don’t care how often it’s actually enforced. I don’t care if it is only enforced against shiny happy people.  That law is dangerous, and should be exposed and rescinded. I’m glad it’s getting attention. Maybe the O.P. wasn’t the poster child for this cause, but I think him for bringing my attention to it. 

This hits home for me. I live 30 miles from Sac, I’m sure I’m even closer to parts of the county. I live at the edge of my town, in a nice subdivision that ironically has much more lenient rules on working on cars. While I have a relatively huge lot for a subdivision, I’d love to move outside of town with a bit more land when the kids get older. Never in a million years would I expect that kind of move to limit my freedom, so this is eye opening. 

I’m actually pretty shocked at your defense of the code, you being a contractor. Most contractors out here live in the rural areas. Cities are too expensive. They build their shops next to their homes, and store their tools, materials, equipment, and work trucks out there. Which is apparently illegal in Sac county. Many contractors I know would close up shop. 

 

minivan_racer
minivan_racer UberDork
7/11/19 11:09 p.m.
Boost_Crazy said:

I’m actually pretty shocked at your defense of the code, you being a contractor. Most contractors out here live in the rural areas. Cities are too expensive. They build their shops next to their homes, and store their tools, materials, equipment, and work trucks out there. Which is apparently illegal in Sac county. Many contractors I know would close up shop. 

 

I'm not sure I've seen anyone defend the code. Some people have pointed out the difficulty of writing codes, and others have pointed out that the first thing he should do is get in compliance, then try and work to change the ordinance.  To me it seems reasonable (yes a PITA, yes it should be unnecessary) to move all automotive repair type activites to the shop he already has already stated he normally does major repair at until he can petition, etc. to change things. 

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