Oh hooray! A semantics argument!!
Out before the lock.
Oh hooray! A semantics argument!!
Out before the lock.
SVreX said:Oh hooray! A semantics argument!!
Out before the lock.
"A semantics argument" is exactly how the law is written. Combined with the utter BS of being assumed guilty and having to prove a negative (at higher cost), and you see why the law as written is bollocks.
In reply to Knurled. :
It’s a E36 M3ty law, but it is not semantically unclear.
In reply to nimblemotorsports :
When I lived in Cape Coral Florida in 1988 it was a violation of city rules to have a $75k pickup in your driveway, or any truck of any kind.
In reply to Knurled. :
The law may be BS, but it came from some place and reason. Somebody screwed the pooch, and made someone important really mad.
Also, to posters assuming a party affiliation, it would be good to look into the reasons. The idea of being a “tax” makes no sense given that it needs specific enforcement, which probably costs more than the fine. Also, the people who benefit the most are dealers, who I bet are in it for the money.
I’m not in CA, but it took barely any work to see that the update passed in 2015. Go read the hearing notes.
Yeah, so, the thread title is technically incorrect. There is some work that is lawful to perform on your own car in your own garage in the county, depending of course on what tools you're using. But that's really just the nature of headlines in these times we live in, right? Maybe it should be:
SACRAMENTO RESIDENTS SHOCKED TO LEARN THEY CAN PERFORM WORK ON THEIR CAR WITH THIS ONE WEIRD TRICK!
oldnslo said:In reply to nimblemotorsports :
When I lived in Cape Coral Florida in 1988 it was a violation of city rules to have a $75k pickup in your driveway, or any truck of any kind.
well honestly that's a good rule. I don't care how comfy those King Ranch seats are/were. 
You should get a pass if there's some two by fours/cement bags/maybe some cinder block in the bed otherwise ban-hammer for Bro-dozers. 
SVreX said:Oh hooray! A semantics argument!!
Out before the lock.
Nah I think it'd take a full thermonuclear assault like mentioning Ruby Ridge and Waco in the same breath.
Now could you possibly get away with a tactical nuke strike by mentioning the case of Donald P. Scott as told by Roberts and Stratton in the book 'The Tyranny of Good Intentions.' ? Chapter Nine 'Forfeiting Justice.'
In Malibu for context but with a Federal/local nexus to boot.
Don't bother with WikiWhackaWhatta?
Personally I thought the book was a little hysterical but if true the Scott case was despicable - amongst the worst that Caesar can bring to an individual in this country. 
Back to the law topic, I didn’t go read the code to fact check, but found this interesting:
In reply to No Time :
Based on that list it looks like things that would be consider major repairs would be:
- gluing your rearview mirror back on
- replacing your stereo or speakers
- putting new pedal pads on
- installing a new soft top on a convertible
- installing a new gas cap
- replacing the antenna
- applying or removing window tint film
- replacing a fuse or relay
- replacing wiper blades
- replacing the shifter boot
- using a home A/C top-off kit
- filling the washer fluid bottle
- installing new wheelcovers/hubcaps
- programming a remote lock keyfob
- replacing the air filter
- replacing the cabin air filter
From the Sacramento city code:
For the purposes of this chapter, the following definitions shall have the following specified meanings:
“Major vehicle repair” means any maintenance, repair or replacement not listed in the definition of “minor vehicle repair” including, but not limited to, the removal of engines, rebuilding of engines, repair of the internal components, repair or removal of transmissions, repair or removal of differentials or axles, dismantling of vehicles, and body work.
“Minor vehicle repair” means maintenance, repair or replacement of the alternator, generator, starter, water pump, fuel pump, battery or, brakes, or parts thereof; minor tune-up (which consists of distributor cap, rotor and spark plug replacement); change of oil and filter, fan belt, or hoses; lamp replacement; repair of flat tires; lubrication, spot painting.
“Vehicle” means a self-propelled device by which any person or property may be propelled, moved, or drawn upon a highway, excepting a device moved exclusively by human power or used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks. (Prior code § 25.15.400)
alfadriver said:In reply to Knurled. :
The law may be BS, but it came from some place and reason. Somebody screwed the pooch, and made someone important really mad.
A couple of decades ago, I would have agreed. These days, many areas are adopting "model" muni codes and building codes that may be a poor fit for the community, but they're 'easy'.
wae said:“Vehicle” means a self-propelled device by which any person or property may be propelled, moved, or drawn upon a highway, excepting a device moved exclusively by human power or used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks. (Prior code § 25.15.400)
Oh good, so no problem rebuilding the engine on a diesel locomotive at home.
In reply to wae :
The definition of major or minor clearly isn’t good, and I think that is well established.
The interesting part, relating to the original topic of the thread, is that the following section says that major repairs can be performed in a residential area if certain conditions are met:
10.52.030 Major vehicle repair.
A. It is unlawful and a public nuisance for any person to engage in major vehicle repair in a residential zone, unless all of the following conditions exist:
1. The repair is performed within a fully enclosed structure; and
2. The vehicle under repair is registered to a current occupant of the premises; and
3. No more than two vehicles are being repaired at one time on the same premises or by the same person.
B. Subsection A of this section notwithstanding, body painting, other than spot painting, is not permitted in a residential zone. (Prior code § 25.15.402)
No Time said:In reply to wae :
The definition of major or minor clearly isn’t good, and I think that is well established.
The interesting part, relating to the original topic of the thread, is that the following section says that major repairs can be performed in a residential area if certain conditions are met:
10.52.030 Major vehicle repair.
A. It is unlawful and a public nuisance for any person to engage in major vehicle repair in a residential zone, unless all of the following conditions exist:
1. The repair is performed within a fully enclosed structure; and
2. The vehicle under repair is registered to a current occupant of the premises; and
3. No more than two vehicles are being repaired at one time on the same premises or by the same person.
B. Subsection A of this section notwithstanding, body painting, other than spot painting, is not permitted in a residential zone. (Prior code § 25.15.402)
It might only be one comment away, but my god it's worth quoting this. This entire thread is a non-issue. The law is a non-issue if you work in your own garage. The only thing prohibited is painting, and there's a good environmental reason for that.
Please, please don't be the shiny happy neighbor that gets car stuff banned for others. Please don't be like OP.
The clarification on the website regarding major vehicle repairs makes more sense, but seems to be in violation of the statue as written.
It looks like it was updated sometime in May, 2019, too.
Rodan said:alfadriver said:In reply to Knurled. :
The law may be BS, but it came from some place and reason. Somebody screwed the pooch, and made someone important really mad.
A couple of decades ago, I would have agreed. These days, many areas are adopting "model" muni codes and building codes that may be a poor fit for the community, but they're 'easy'.
Then get involved. There are (and were for this case) public hearings for new laws. Go to them, say something. The system is there for each of us to provide input.
Kylini said:No Time said:In reply to wae :
The definition of major or minor clearly isn’t good, and I think that is well established.
The interesting part, relating to the original topic of the thread, is that the following section says that major repairs can be performed in a residential area if certain conditions are met:
10.52.030 Major vehicle repair.
A. It is unlawful and a public nuisance for any person to engage in major vehicle repair in a residential zone, unless all of the following conditions exist:
1. The repair is performed within a fully enclosed structure; and
2. The vehicle under repair is registered to a current occupant of the premises; and
3. No more than two vehicles are being repaired at one time on the same premises or by the same person.
B. Subsection A of this section notwithstanding, body painting, other than spot painting, is not permitted in a residential zone. (Prior code § 25.15.402)
It might only be one comment away, but my god it's worth quoting this. This entire thread is a non-issue. The law is a non-issue if you work in your own garage. The only thing prohibited is painting, and there's a good environmental reason for that.
Please, please don't be the shiny happy neighbor that gets car stuff banned for others. Please don't be like OP.
Yes, don't be That Guy.
But, 10.52.030 Major vehicle repair is the county statute. The Zoning Code for the county, section 5.2.0.B (which is quoted earlier in the thread) states that per the zoning, it's unlawful to engage in minor repairs or maintenance if (using tools not ordinarily found in a residence) OR (outside of a garage AND vehicle is inop for >24 hours). It is unlawful (without exception, it seems) in these particular zones top engage in major repair or maintenance. Full stop.
So, you might be in compliance with the county ordinance to change your wiper blades inside the garage with the door closed, however, you would seemingly still be in violation of the zoning ordinance.
Now, it's possible that the two laws have different meanings for minor auto repair. The county ordinance is quite specific that if it isn't listed as a minor repair it is automatically major. Thus, adding windshield fluid is a major repair or maintenance item and must be done in a fully enclosed garage. If the zoning ordinance is more forgiving since it says "brake part replacement, minor tune-up, change of oil and filter, repair of flat tire, lubrication and other similar operations", then I suppose new washer fluid would be okay as long as it is done inside the garage with the door closed.
The way it's been explained to me is that the county ordinance sets the base-line and then the zoning can ride on top of that and add more restrictions as part of putting a parcel into a certain zone. So if the zoning ordinance is more restrictive than the county one, that's okay.
So, yes, the COUNTY allows major auto repair if it's fully enclosed. But zoning prohibits it at all in parcels that are zoned agricultural, agricultural-residential, residential, interim agricultural holding, interim estate, or interim residential. And even though the zoning ordinance says "similar operations", since the county ordinance says if it's not in the list of minor items it is automatically major. While I am certain that is not an activity that they intended to outlaw and one would expect that they won't issue a citation or fine if they see you doing it, by the letter of the law, they could. And I think that's a problem.
I just joined the forum because of the article in Microsoft Edge that led me here. Having had various brushes with various entities at various times in my life, I find these articles and discussions interesting, and believing in freedom and property rights, I believe sometimes you have to fight for what is right! Additionally I have contract on a piece of property with a nice sized shop, a 3/1 and 1 acre of property, that I've concluded that I shouldn't have any issue working on cars for my own purposes. Its surrounded by redneck neighbors and the only access is a shared driveway with one of them, that is contractually bound. I have a lot of stories about this kind of stuff, so it might take some attention span to read it all.
Anyway, this all started at a point in my life where my world crashed,My girlfriend and I broke up, My business partners and I had a falling out, so I sold out and moved out of town. I connected up with another guy who was selling books for one of his customers called "The High Priests of Treason". The book is basically the story of how the US Income tax came into being, but is basically illegal because not enough States ratified it, and the Govt lied and said they did. The book also went into other ordinances that the Govt puts on people that are basically illegal, and it stated a lot of case law in this respect.
Well I went through the process of getting my DBA to start a new business, and started operating out of the same office as my new friend. Well it wasn't long before the County started hitting me up for an occupational license, and tangible non-personable property taxes. After about the third letter I decided to put the case law in the book to the test. So I wrote a letter back stating that the fee's they were trying to charge me were "special law" that pertained to Corporations, LLC, and persons who do business with Govt. , and persons who are in the Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms business, and persons who pay employee's. I stated that I was an Individual who was in a non-regulated business, and that since I was not involved in any of the above, that they had no business subjecting me to the taxes. I also stated the Case Law from the book, of which i can only remember two of the three, (Lloyd R Long vs the U.S ) and ( Redfield vs Fisher ).
Well about a month later, I got a letter from the County saying they consulted with the County Atty, and that I would not be worth their time to pursue, and that the matter was dropped. Never was bothered by them again.
A couple years later I got in a car wreck out of town and ended up buying a crap car from an aquaintance in that town who sold cars, 4 months later I still hadn't got the paperwork to transfer registration, and got 2 tickets same day same Police dept. I asked a Lawyer who was a customer what I should do about it. He gave me an outdated Florida WestLaw book that usually only attorneys have, and said here, your a smart guy, start with the statute you have been charged with and go from there. ( wasn't worth his time ) So I do that and lo and behold all I had to do was prove why i didn't have it registered, and prove compliance and I was off the hook. So I ragged on my aquaintance to provide me the paperwork, got the car registered, and poof , off free and clear.
A couple years later after that I had a new girlfriend who lived in an HOA neighborhood. One day I put my business name on the back window of my Jeep, the HOA President told me I couldn't park in my girlfriends driveway overnight because I had a "Commercial Vehicle". My girlfriend was Secretary for the HOA, so I got a copy of the rules from her, and I got back out my secret weapon the "WestLaw" book, and explained to the HOA President that while her rule was correct, my vehicle did not meet Florida's definition of a Commercial vehicle, and that she didn't have E63M3 to say about it. So again dropped.
alfadriver said:Rodan said:alfadriver said:In reply to Knurled. :
The law may be BS, but it came from some place and reason. Somebody screwed the pooch, and made someone important really mad.
A couple of decades ago, I would have agreed. These days, many areas are adopting "model" muni codes and building codes that may be a poor fit for the community, but they're 'easy'.
Then get involved. There are (and were for this case) public hearings for new laws. Go to them, say something. The system is there for each of us to provide input.
Are those hours billable? Could a parent get a tax credit for baby-sitting expenses? ( Be much more fun to set up a baby/toddler area right in front of the stage .)
Unfortunately the government is staffed by humans not algorithims.
Oftentimes they don't respond to inputs or invariably take a massive hump and act out of spite. That part is called raw power no matter how petty the issue at hand.
If you want to see the ineffectivenes of that I'll cite two examples.
Sub-title given due to controversial nature of book. Read 'The Incarceration Of Walter B. Hoye.'
Personal observations. Years ago I made the mistake of watching a couple of local council hearings on tape.
Basically a mirror reflection of some of the Congressional stuff I've also made the mistake of watching.
An old gay white man gob-smackingly told a very young married black couple they didn't need a variance to a prohibition on liquor sales for their restaurant ( proximity either to a school or place of worship I can't remember ) because surely they were doing quite well from the sale of beer and wine.
The look of pure speechlessness on their faces was in no way affected as is often/always the mannerisms of these 'effete impudent snobs' in power.
This same councillor was notorious for being a prick to waiters and I stood and watched it on a side-walk patio once for confirmation and later asking the staff there.
These are humans not angels. So most of the time you're berkeleyed.
As noted above, there is Sacramento the city, and the larger Sacramento County. Usually, the county has fairly lax regulations to cover the rural areas, and the cities within the county have their own stricter regulations. In this case it’s the opposite. The county is stricter than the city, which is odd considering it’s a state capital surrounded by largely rural communities. You don’t usually hear people say, “This country life is too restrictive, I need to move to the city.” Sacramento county is pretty big- about 1000 square miles. There are some really rural communities in the county, quite a distance from any repair shops. There are also some very car centric areas in the county. Rancho Cordova for example has dozens of auto recyclers, and a drag strip. I think there is still a dirt track there too. I’m pretty sure more than a few in the area do major auto repairs at home.
My point being, is that you can use these laws to your advantage! Generally now days all laws can be researched online. Each law has another law concerning punishment or compliance. There are also supossed to be definitions.
Personally I would look up the Statute you have been fined for, write a letter denying payment on the basis that the Statute was not intended for the activity you have been cited for. And then go from there.
In reply to nutherjrfan :
Seems like more reasons to get involved.
Time to stop blaming the system, understand how it works, and not pass the buck. As you say, it’s about people, be one of those people.
Just a reminder to everyone, this board has it's own rules....
alfadriver said:In reply to nutherjrfan :
Seems like more reasons to get involved.
Time to stop blaming the system, understand how it works, and not pass the buck. As you say, it’s about people, be one of those people.
Not to be dick but I'll continue to disagree.
The Feds were brought about by the States and power was divvied up between the three branches to balance out the chance of tyranny.
You simply don't have that at the local level.
It's great when you live in a locality where you have rational actors in control that think somewhat like you. Makes agreeing with one another pretty easy.
When that's not the case at the local level there is no balance of power. There is no alternate power base to balance out over reach.
I wish it were. Put simply you have to move to an area where you agree with people nowadays and for the most part of history that is what humans have done.
Agreeing with every single person you meet where I live is a point of pride and intense self-congratulating. Lots of navel gazing but very little critical thought.
If this were a locality in the Deep South maybe he'd stand a chance of appealing to the more yeoman Jeffersonian residents but in California?
Ok that last point was a generalization so I could be way off the mark. 
sleepyhead the buffalo said:Just a reminder to everyone, this board has it's own rules....
Just saw this. Peace out. 
This topic is locked. No further posts are being accepted.
