Nationals just finished C Street and the keyboard prognosticators were correct. The extra HP and RPM resulted in a much different car for AX and the ND2 got the top 8 places and the nearest ND1 was 17th, in the bottom half of the field. The ND2 runs the times B Street does.
So... Letter writing time?
But all the ND1 owners said the ND2 wouldn't really be faster ;)
This just in: faster version of a car is faster than the slower version of a car.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Lmao. What did they THINK would happen, a miracle?
In reply to _ :
Actually the debate was course length. If you have a course with shorter straights where the ND1 didn't need to shift to 3rd, it should be theoretically faster as it accelerated harder through that range of 2nd. Except all National-level courses seem to have much longer high speed sections, where the ND2 can wind out 2nd and the ND1 shifts up and down.
The "glass is half empty" result: NC's and ND1's get dumped into ES. Kazoospec's NB2 is instantly a "3 seconds off pace " backmarker.
In reply to kazoospec :
ES is supposed to be a stable entry-level class that the SEB doesn't want to mess with.
I suspect more that the ND2 will get bumped to BS. The ND1 and S2K are pretty well matched and there's some outliers who might compete, like my 986S.
Javelin said:In reply to _ :
Actually the debate was course length. If you have a course with shorter straights where the ND1 didn't need to shift to 3rd, it should be theoretically faster as it accelerated harder through that range of 2nd. Except all National-level courses seem to have much longer high speed sections, where the ND2 can wind out 2nd and the ND1 shifts up and down.
I think that was the ND1 owners trying to kid themselves that the ND2 top end came at the expense of bottom end. The ND2 is not slower in any range, but it's faster any time the car is over 6000 rpm. That means 50 mph in 2nd or 30 mph in 1st.
So that means the Ap1 s2000 in C-street lol
kazoospec said:The "glass is half empty" result: NC's and ND1's get dumped into ES. Kazoospec's NB2 is instantly a "3 seconds off pace " backmarker.
Oh, no, please don't put them in ES. NB Miatas will get crushed, unless they are moved also.
In reply to Floating Doc :
Here's hoping Javelin is right. I'm just a little "gun shy" because I bought an NA2 to run ES because the class rules and allowed cars were supposed to be stable. Even though I didn't have the "it package" R model, it was at least locally competitive.
2 years later they dumped NB's and MR-S's into ES. I still ran the NA for several years as a "backmarker" car, but it wasn't a whole lot of fun. I've now owned my NB (which, again, is at least locally competitive) for 2 seasons so . . .
It’ll never happen. See the AP1 vs AP2 s2000 debate that’s been going on for 15 years for reference.
kazoospec said:In reply to Floating Doc :
Here's hoping Javelin is right. I'm just a little "gun shy" because I bought an NA2 to run ES because the class rules and allowed cars were supposed to be stable. Even though I didn't have the "it package" R model, it was at least locally competitive.
2 years later they dumped NB's and MR-S's into ES. I still ran the NA for several years as a "backmarker" car, but it wasn't a whole lot of fun. I've now owned my NB (which, again, is at least locally competitive) for 2 seasons so . . .
Can I say that it's really amusing to see NA & NB owners worry about being the slow car? It took many decades to move the Alfas out of the same class as Miatas (IIRC, that didn't happen until I stopped autocrossing), until the NA's and NB's were not winning anymore. Which made ES not a fun class anymore for older cars. Can we just have classes of NAS, NBS, NCS and NDS? That would make everyone NOT driving Miatas happy.
Spoolpigeon said:It’ll never happen. See the AP1 vs AP2 s2000 debate that’s been going on for 15 years for reference.
AP1 vs AP2 never had this much domination. I have to back through all the results for the season, but if I remember correctly, the ND2 has dominated every Tour over the ND1.
Tangent. I remember when the C5 Z06 was launched, there were weeks of debate and calculations on Team.net (anyone still remember that?) to prove beforehand that it would be no faster on an autocross course than a Z51 equipped base car. Some very serious autocrossers were convinced of that at the time. Right up until the first one turned up at an event!
The SEB made their statement on the ND2 and kept it out of STR for a year and let it only play in CS.
It's not moving to BS. End of story.
spacecadet said:The SEB made their statement on the ND2 and kept it out of STR for a year and let it only play in CS.
It's not moving to BS. End of story.
A year of data does a lot to change the SEB's minds.
In reply to Javelin :
Its not happening
they're not going to move the ND2 out to BS in favor of the unreliable time bombs that are the ND1's and their transmissions. Their time is over.
In reply to spacecadet :
Last year people said that STH wasn't getting intercooler allowances... 
Hey, just make more classes. Why not a class for each gen of each model? Everyone can be a winner
(Sarcasm)
as an outside viewer, there are a LOT of classes and a lot of whining in SCCA autocross
In reply to Lof8 :
People like to complain about people complaining and the number of classes. There are serious talks about how to take solo into the future and deal with the number of classes. Its extremely hard to kill classes and there's also a need to move with the times.
Javelin said:In reply to spacecadet :
Last year people said that STH wasn't getting intercooler allowances...
There's a large difference in adding intercoolers to al all turbo class where they don't effect parity vs pulling a car they waited as long as they could to class.
Street moves with the times. The ND2 is not that much faster than the ND1. But it fixes the gearing issues with the ND1 and it's a better car with the telescoping steering wheel and improved transmission.
Lof8 said:Hey, just make more classes. Why not a class for each gen of each model? Everyone can be a winner
(Sarcasm)
as an outside viewer, there are a LOT of classes and a lot of whining in SCCA autocross
986 Boxster S - C Street
987 Boxster S - B Street
981 Boxster S - A Street
718 Boxster S - Super Street
So it's like already a thing...
Or, FM offers a spec "balance of performance" kit for the ND1 and everyone gets equal again.
How much of this is self-fulfilling prophecy? Yeah, the first ND1 is all the way down in 17th, but there are also only 2 of them entered, compared with 25 people driving ND2s. It seems likely that it is in fact faster, but this is also hardly a head to head comparison.
If only there were a sports car/racing mag that could do a head to head comparison.
You know, something like this GRM settles the great FRS/BRZ SSC controversy for all time
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