Joeys first challenge pricing question

Woo hoo Jagermeister!

joey48442 wrote: Yeah, the other goodies, Like the intake, was bought used years ago for 20 bucks, the exhaust was, I dunno, about 50, used. The springs and sways are around 50k old, and they are in rough shape, cosmetically. They still work great, and dont sag, but alot of the paint is peeling off. The AGXs were about 300 on ebay, a few years ago. They seem to be more expensive now, but I could be remembering wrong. They are not fresh and new, by any stretch, though. I couldnt find a set used, tho get a bearing on that, though. Im probably not coming to the challenge anytime soon, but it would be fun to try to rebuild this car on a challenge friendly budget, in case I do! Joey

Still sounds like you are trying to de-value stuff for the purpose of making it eligible. I think Per has been very generous already.

If you paid $20 for the intake, include the receipt. If you have none, then FMV. That's not the lowest price you can find, it's the fair and reasonable going rate that could be available to most people. If you get a bargain, get a receipt.

As written, the rules do not allow an initial purchase price over $2009, nor do they allow FMV for the purchase price. Looks like Per is working on a re-write, so you may be in luck.

"All builders shall spend no more than $2008 on their cars. The purchase price of the car must be equal to or less than $2008. Title fees, registration and insurance are not counted toward the budget. Shipping (or transportation costs) of the car and parts used in the building process must be counted toward the budget."

FMV is for parts you already own, that have been given to you, cars bought at non-public auctions, or work performed at commercial places of business:

" Parts that are given to the competitor by a company or person must be figured into the budget at fair market value. Sponsorships are allowed, but the value of any product or service that is used in building the car must be figured into the $2008 budget."

"Work that is performed at a commercial, for-profit place of business must be billed to the budget at fair market value."

So, on the car you are suggesting we de-value it to today's value, but on the parts you are suggesting we de-value it to the price you paid several years ago (although you've no receipts). Can't have your cake and eat it too.

The better rule of thumb than the technical specifics of the rules is this- If another competitor with the same amount of skill and ingenuity that you have can build the exact same car for what you are claiming, you are probably pretty close.

Thanks, Per, for looking again at that rule.

Man Pimpish can open up the worms can't he!

I believe he is less interested in actually going to the Challenge per say but rather building one according to the rules. So unless he cancels the Tail or does something way out of character like take a vacation I think he is doing this to prove that he can.

SVreX wrote: (although you've no receipts). Can't have your cake and eat it too. The better rule of thumb than the technical specifics of the rules is this- If another competitor with the same amount of skill and ingenuity that you have can build the exact same car for what you are claiming, you are probably pretty close. Thanks, Per, for looking again at that rule.

Im not trying to "have my cake and eat it too". If I was doing that, I would say that "I bought this intake (which was old, with a dirty filter and missing half its mounting bracket) for 20 bucks, and I have used it for a few years, and now its worth 10 bucks". Im not saying that. Im saying that it is still worth 20 bucks. Which is all I would say an old Racing Beat intake is worth. If someone is will to give me more than that for it, they are an idiot.

I mean something obviously different with the car. I say that it is definitely not worth the 4500 I bought it for 5 years ago. If having 100k extra miles, lots of rust, and being in an accident means its still wort the same price, then please, send your check to: Joeljblatchford@paypal.com. The car is not worth what it was. The intake I suppose is. The shocks and springs are not. I will give them FMV, whatever a set of rusty springs are worth, and worn AGXs are worth. The springs are only 176 new.

Im not trying to cheat anyone. I just want this car built on a challenge budget, mostly because Im cheap, and this give me an excuse. Anyone who would give me more than 500 bucks for that car is a moron.

I guess It will never end up at the challenge though, because this is what a 4500 miata looks like:

Pic was taken awhile back, just after the accident, hence the different plates, and red trunk lid. Joey

Here is my question and I will not use Joels car as its basis:

If a "devalued" modified vehiicle is in an accident and totalled, bought back from the insurance company for $500.00 and used for the challenge what is the value of the car?

Case in point, We have had a few "total" reclaims already in the Challenge and they used the insurance buy back cost as their starting cost.

Personally I would value Joels car as $1100.00 so that I could recoup a lot of the FMV scrapping it down to $550.00 after replacing the body with the $400.00 unit from Metalman and adding the remaining parts from the totalled car leaving $459.00 in recoup left and $1059 in budget. From there I would buy a $900.00 totalled Supercoupe and put the engine in the Miata scrapping and selling the rest for the $459.00 recoup affording me a T5 transmission and the mods to install the driveshaft and isolate the PPF.

All under budget... too bad no one asked me right?

NICE SHOP.

"Work that is performed at a commercial, for-profit place of business must be billed to the budget at fair market value."

clownkiller wrote: NICE SHOP.

For real.

My car is in the basement. I have to weld outside to keep the smell out of the house.

Joey:

If you will read back through your posts in this thread as objectively as you can (as if you do not know yourself), I think you will find why 4 separate people have suggested it sounds like you are trying to devalue the car to make it eligible.

The tone of your posts is very defensive and argumentative. People are basically agreeing with you and trying to help, but each time you respond, you debate a little further why this "goodie" or that part isn't worth what others are suggesting.

All I did was read the rules. Those are what they are, whether or not any of us like them or agree with them. I really think you should start with a careful read of them before debating whether they are right or not.

Per already said he'd try to re-write the rules to accommodate you. It just doesn't get any better than that. He also said he didn't like the "goodies" (your word). So call it $500 for the car, FMV the "goodies" and you are set, like Per said.

clownkiller wrote: NICE SHOP. "Work that is performed at a commercial, for-profit place of business must be billed to the budget at fair market value."

OK, I'll bite. I know what car that is, but where is that shop? It doesn't actually look like a place of business- it looks like a trade school or a gymnasium.

SVreX wrote: Joey: If you will read back through your posts in this thread as objectively as you can (as if you do not know yourself), I think you will find why 4 separate people have suggested it sounds like you are trying to devalue the car to make it eligible. The tone of your posts is very defensive and argumentative. People are basically agreeing with you and trying to help, but each time you respond, you debate a little further why this "goodie" or that part isn't worth what others are suggesting. All I did was read the rules. Those are what they are, whether or not any of us like them or agree with them. I really think you should start with a careful read of them before debating whether they are right or not. Per already said he'd try to re-write the rules to accommodate you. It just doesn't get any better than that. He also said he didn't like the "goodies" (your word). So call it $500 for the car, FMV the "goodies" and you are set, like Per said.

Wait a second, who suggested a price for any of the parts, other than me? No one has suggested a price for my goodies (I know, my word) yet. I don't think I was being argumentative, or defensive before, but I am now! Suggest something, if you want, and maybe I will agree to it! No one has yet, though. I don't have a receipt for the stuff. Just my word, which is of course not good enough, I know. So, tell me what fair market value is for this stuff. What YOU would be willing to pay ME for the stuff on this car.
What if, I said, after 20k miles a summer in this car I said Berkeley it, I'm tired of this Miata stuff, I'm selling it to John Brown. With a receipt, and an account of whats on the car. I cant imagine him or anyone else paying more that 500 for it the way it sits. Does he then have to fair market all the stuff on the car? What if, in a momentary laps of reason, he pay 1k for it? Does he still have to declare FMV for the stuff? It sounds like there is much more benefit to buying something for the challenge, than using stuff you already have, which doesn't seem to line up with what I though the whole idea of the thing was.

I'm not trying to devalue my stuff. I'm really, REALLY not. I just don't think its worth very much. I have no problem with FMV. I wish someone would suggest a price for this stuff. I cant find any of this stuff used on Miata.net or fleabay. I cant imagine anyone would pay more than 20 bucks for an old used intake. Especially one that doesn't seem to make any difference, other than noise, which is why I wouldn't even end up using it on a challenge build. Maybe they would. Maybe they would pay 100 bucks for a used intake. If so, I will send it to them, with free shipping. I could use an extra 100 bucks.

Regardless, this most likely will not ever be a challenge car, I just wanted to build it in line with budget.

Joey

SVreX wrote:

clownkiller wrote: NICE SHOP. "Work that is performed at a commercial, for-profit place of business must be billed to the budget at fair market value."

OK, I'll bite. I know what car that is, but where is that shop? It doesn't actually look like a place of business- it looks like a trade school or a gymnasium.

Procter & Gamble supplied the commercial business.

Does anyone have a convenient link to the challenge rules? I did a search but came up with threads asking questions and I would like to read the official rules before posting my question.

Thanks in advance!

edit - nevermind, I am an idiot. Permit to be a pain in the ass applied for

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/events/2008-challenge/#rules

clownkiller wrote: Procter & Gamble supplied the commercial business.

Gotcha. But they're not in the business of repairing cars, right? I realize the rules say only "commercial" or "for profit", but the clear intent is that it means being in the business of fixing or building cars.

That is a nice workspace.

Another fine line. What about if the work is done at an aerospace facility and the car happens to be rocket powered? Maybe someone builds a Hong homage at a meth lab? Where is the line drawn?

JB said:Maybe someone builds a Hong homage at a meth lab?

Somebody just lost their invitation to the Meth party at Hong Norrth HQ.

What if I finish my Hong homage?

It will not be a Honda or fast or nice... but

John Brown wrote: Another fine line. What about if the work is done at an aerospace facility and the car happens to be rocket powered? Maybe someone builds a Hong homage at a meth lab? Where is the line drawn?

Ummm... P&G is a "Multinational manufacturer of product ranges including personal care, household cleaning, laundry detergents, prescription drugs and disposable nappies." (off their website). Where exactly is that fine line???

I'm trying to figure out how we're going to run a car on toothpaste or disposable nappies.

Since we starting splitting hairs, it is a business and it is for profit. If it were performed at a service garage, paint shop, supermarket or brothel it would qualify as a business for profit.

Diesels will run on most anything ;)

I am not really busting your balls, we all know that P&G did not build the car, their employees used their facility and built the car in their off time... but it is on that razor edge of that decision.

Yeah but...

I think that rule was to level the playing feild. A guy with a full up professional race shop at their disposal is going to be able to do more with $2008 that even Andy Nelson can in his garage. OK, not really, but you guys know what I mean.

Before we start splitting hairs, remember the intent and a lot of these rules become pretty clear. This is a builders competition and the idea is to encourage creativity.

Honestly, if Joey had just showed up with the Miata, and said "$500,".no one would question him. It would only get to be an issue if he won, and as I always say to the folks who don't get the challenge; "Yeah, you could show up with a 10K car claiming only $2k, but you'd still lose."

Really the only peaple that fine line it are the lot of us, and we do it to ourselves. And lets be honest, we're not competitive. Your Hongers, Cheaperalls, Nelson family/ and Assosiates, Cultitas, and the like minded competitors never fine line it. They stay far away from any questionable actions becuase they know, and as a result, we all know they are beyond question.

SVreX you had the best quote "I decided to not believe eveyone was cheating and I learned a lot."

...and I know this is a purely academic discussion, but lets remember why we are interested in this. Good folks, cool cars and a great weekend once a year in Florida.

EastCoastMojo wrote: Does anyone have a convenient link to the challenge rules? I did a search but came up with threads asking questions and I would like to read the official rules before posting my question. Thanks in advance! edit - nevermind, I am an idiot. Permit to be a pain in the ass applied for http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/events/2008-challenge/#rules

You want these rules: http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/events/2009-challenge/

Mental wrote: Yeah but... I think that rule was to level the playing feild. A guy with a full up professional race shop at their disposal is going to be able to do more with $2008 that even Andy Nelson can in his garage. OK, not really, but you guys know what I mean. Before we start splitting hairs, remember the intent and a lot of these rules become pretty clear. This is a builders competition and the idea is to encourage creativity. Honestly, if Joey had just showed up with the Miata, and said "$500,".no one would question him. It would only get to be an issue if he won, and as I always say to the folks who don't get the challenge; "Yeah, you could show up with a 10K car claiming only $2k, but you'd still lose." Really the only peaple that fine line it are the lot of us, and we do it to ourselves. And lets be honest, we're not competitive. Your Hongers, Cheaperalls, Nelson family/ and Assosiates, Cultitas, and the like minded competitors never fine line it. They stay far away from any questionable actions becuase they know, and as a result, we all know they are beyond question. SVreX you had the best quote "I decided to not believe eveyone was cheating and I learned a lot." ...and I know this is a purely academic discussion, but lets remember why we are interested in this. Good folks, cool cars and a great weekend once a year in Florida.

is this when we hold hands and sing kumbaya?

seriously though, well put.

Tim Baxter wrote: You want these rules: http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/events/2009-challenge/

Thanks! Any thoughts about holding a challenge rallyx?

Why does it seem I am always posting after Mojo?

I wish it were possible to add a RallyX at night between the two events... I just don't think the staff would survive!

Then, after it's all over we can have a demolition derby!