I mean I can't say for sure until someone tries it but this is from my messenger chat with Ecotec Miata
I mean I can't say for sure until someone tries it but this is from my messenger chat with Ecotec Miata
In reply to Jaynen :
1. Well over half of the options in the original topic don't make that power. BUT I will say that it becomes quite hard to make a Miata work at 300/300 because then every option that uses a Miata trans goes out the window. You will be breaking things left and right with that power. I make 300 at the crank no problem, yet I don't break transmissions or have heat/engine problems. Just something to consider.
2. Yeah the 1.8L Torsen is pretty much bulletproof. At least, the glass transmission will be the limiting factor WELL before the 1.8L Torsen rear end is.
Hi guys! You caught me offline because of Real Life Stuff, and this is not liable to change much over the rest of the week.
Here's my thoughts. It's all about the trans.
The stock 5-speed trans is solid up to about 250 rwhp, a bit more with the 6-speed. That's not "glass" because you're talking about 2.5x the design power level 
But it's definitely a factor. This is the awkward thing about the Ks, the Js, the Ecotecs, etc - if you're going to limit yourself to a power level that is friendly to the trans, then there's a very viable option staring you in the face that doesn't even require you to remove the valve cover. You can reach these power levels with a bolt-on turbo kit. And I don't care how easy an engine swap is, it's not as easy as installing a good turbo.
Once you decide to swap the trans, you're in a different level of difficulty. You may or may not be able to retain the stock Miata rear (good for 400-ish if you don't wheel hop your launches) depending primarily on how the available gear ratios work with your new trans. And if you're going to go that far, why put in the effort without the full reward? At this point, anything other than the big daddy starts to look like a compromise without reason. You can save a bit of weight with a V6, but you also give up a significant amount of power and torque.
So it kinda turns into an all or nothing thing. At least, if you're looking at justifiable engineering reasons for what you're doing. If you want the wail of a high compression Honda four on the big lobes, then I'm not going to argue with you. That would be a lot of fun - remember, I'm a guy who once had a VERY expensive 2.0 high compression Miata motor that was highly entertaining. If you simply want to do something different because other options are "played out" or somehow uncool, then just be sure you know why you're doing it.
This is from the viewpoint of someone who has considered a bunch of options both for the business and for his own cars. We've looked at the V6s and some of the Alternative Fours and none of them have made it through our criteria - which may be different than those of someone who doesn't have to keep the lights on at a shop. I think an Ecoboost NC would be a really interesting thing to try personally, but I can't get the boss to shake out the R&D funds due to a poor business case, alas.
goingnowherefast said:In reply to Jaynen :
1. Well over half of the options in the original topic don't make that power. BUT I will say that it becomes quite hard to make a Miata work at 300/300 because then every option that uses a Miata trans goes out the window. You will be breaking things left and right with that power. I make 300 at the crank no problem, yet I don't break transmissions or have heat/engine problems. Just something to consider.
2. Yeah the 1.8L Torsen is pretty much bulletproof. At least, the glass transmission will be the limiting factor WELL before the 1.8L Torsen rear end is.
Yeah that's why the fact the Ecotec swap can use the Aisin AR-5 Trans from the Sky or Solstice is a nicety. You are running a rotrex at 300crank?
Keith Tanner said:Hi guys! You caught me offline because of Real Life Stuff, and this is not liable to change much over the rest of the week.
Here's my thoughts. It's all about the trans.
The stock 5-speed trans is solid up to about 250 rwhp, a bit more with the 6-speed. That's not "glass" because you're talking about 2.5x the design power level
Once you decide to swap the trans, you're in a different level of difficulty. You may or may not be able to retain the stock Miata rear (good for 400-ish if you don't wheel hop your launches) depending primarily on how the available gear ratios work with your new trans. And if you're going to go that far, why put in the effort without the full reward? At this point, anything other than the big daddy starts to look like a compromise without reason. You can save a bit of weight with a V6, but you also give up a significant amount of power and torque.
So it kinda turns into an all or nothing thing. At least, if you're looking at justifiable engineering reasons for what you're doing. If you want the wail of a high compression Honda four on the big lobes, then I'm not going to argue with you. That would be a lot of fun - remember, I'm a guy who once had a VERY expensive 2.0 high compression Miata motor that was highly entertaining. If you simply want to do something different because other options are "played out" or somehow uncool, then just be sure you know why you're doing it.
This is from the viewpoint of someone who has considered a bunch of options both for the business and for his own cars. We've looked at the V6s and some of the Alternative Fours and none of them have made it through our criteria - which may be different than those of someone who doesn't have to keep the lights on at a shop. I think an Ecoboost NC would be a really interesting thing to try personally, but I can't get the boss to shake out the R&D funds due to a poor business case, alas.
We are all spoiled to even have so many options and such great little cars to debate putting them into.
Amen to that.
Keith Tanner said:So it kinda turns into an all or nothing thing. At least, if you're looking at justifiable engineering reasons for what you're doing.
I agree, but I'm curious if there is some middleground?
Seems like there is an easy button for 250whp: boost the BP
For 300-350hp I feel like the LNF or maybe another swap would work well and still cost less than going all the way to LS, no?
I understand from a business case there may not be enough of a market there for you guys to consider it. Especially if you are talking about customers willing to pay labor.
RE Keith: Speaking of a NC Ecoboost; How does the rest of the drivetrain hold up to Ecoboost power levels?
ProDarwin said:For 300-350hp I feel like the LNF or maybe another swap would work well and still cost less than going all the way to LS, no?
I understand from a business case there may not be enough of a market there for you guys to consider it. Especially if you are talking about customers willing to pay labor.
If time has a value, the cost difference between the LNF and the LS isn’t all that significant. If time is free, you’re fabricating everything possible yourself and most of your cost comes from the actual engine/transmission/supporting upgrades, then the math isn’t as compelling. But really, the cost to purchase your drivetrain always turns out to be a surprisingly small factor to the overall cost.
It’s kind of like trying to make 200 hp on the BP, you have to do the same amount of work and use the same components that you’d need to reach 250-275.
RossD said:RE Keith: Speaking of a NC Ecoboost; How does the rest of the drivetrain hold up to Ecoboost power levels?
I don’t rightly know. The trans should be stronger than the earlier ones. Define “Ecoboost power levels”.
Stock or Ford Controls pack levels.
GTwannaB said:Knurled. said:noddaz said:Or this could be titled "GRM tests swapped Miata against each other".
Go.
Duratec. Doable with factory drivetrain parts (NC smoothcase 5 speed) so no PPF or driveshaft hackery required.
Supposedly the 2.0 direct injected head from a Focus, with a 2.5 block and 2.3 crank, makes for a righteously capable 2.4l engine.
Ok a bit of a thread jack. But I would be more interested to see this combo in one of the dirt cheap RX8s all over Craigslist.
Yes
The real question here is if you can get a Ford Barra in one. (Sorry had to go there.)
The fact the RX8 swap market is so... non robust? non proven? given how many of them are around and so cheap always surprises me
Jaynen said:The fact the RX8 swap market is so... non robust? non proven? given how many of them are around and so cheap always surprises me
I think part of that is because the RX8 got so many black eyes when it came out, between the buyback program over the power rating, the S1 engine issues and the electronics that were difficult to crack. As much as I like them, from what I've read, it seems like if you want more power, you are kinda screwed.
NickD said:Jaynen said:The fact the RX8 swap market is so... non robust? non proven? given how many of them are around and so cheap always surprises me
I think part of that is because the RX8 got so many black eyes when it came out, between the buyback program over the power rating, the S1 engine issues and the electronics that were difficult to crack. As much as I like them, from what I've read, it seems like if you want more power, you are kinda screwed.
I didn't realize even with a swap the electronics were a bear
Jaynen said:The fact the RX8 swap market is so... non robust? non proven? given how many of them are around and so cheap always surprises me
I was just going to mention I read this whole thread and nobody had any rotary ideas?
REW swap - done. got money? buy a 20B - done.
Our friends at KMiata have a transmission solution for those wanting increased power levels.
They are using a ZF-- BMW transmissions-- both 5spd and 6spd. Not only are they robust, they should feel nice too!
Yeah those are in the video I linked a few pages back the 6 speed ZF swap kit is 2600 bucks not including the transmission
In reply to goingnowherefast :
Yes what combo are you running?
I figure I'll chime in since engine swaps are our core business.
There have been a lot of new swaps that have popped up since we pioneered the K swap back in 2013. Be sure you're looking at a true apples to apples comparison on total swap quality and cost, as well as actual power potential. All kits do not include the same components, most kits out there are only include some core structural components. If you look at our K24 Ultimate swap kit, for example, you'll see that it includes a 4-2-1 stainless race header, a Skunk2 performance intake manifold, a 74mm throttle body, a belt and idler pulley, and a bunch of other extras that aren't typically found in swap kits, which makes the process much more straightforward.
Because of this, our customers consistently see our advertised 220+whp and 8200 rpm from a stock k24a2, with minimal guesswork left to the user. By contrast, most LE5 ecotec swappers are seeing 160-170whp, although at a lower overall cost. N/A power costs money, and an extra 50-60whp is really significant. As far as engine swaps go, the K24 swap is as complete of a package as you can find for any chassis anywhere. You're spending more money in one lump sum to purchase a proven package and save yourself from hunting for lots of additional components.
Like Keith said, the stock gearbox is a limiting factor for any swap looking for huge power. For N/A K series 4 cylinder power, it works great. However like Joe mentioned, we now offer a BMW E36/E46 ZF trans upgrade (5-speed available now, 6-speed available next month) for our turbo customers. We already have guys putting 600+whp through this setup with zero issues so now you can pick the trans that's best suited for your goals.
Thanks for chiming in! It's nice to get accurate information.
In reply to kevlarcorolla :
1.8L VVT Motor, TDR Racing C30-84 full kit (intercooled), FF 640CC injectors, MS3X, RB Header, 2.5" inch cat-back (no cat), full E85. About ~280 whp last month on a dynojet. I'll try to get the dyno sheet uploaded when I can find it.
Keith Tanner said:RossD said:RE Keith: Speaking of a NC Ecoboost; How does the rest of the drivetrain hold up to Ecoboost power levels?
I don’t rightly know. The trans should be stronger than the earlier ones. Define “Ecoboost power levels”.
For a 2.0 EcoBoost running the Ford Racing controls pack, you're looking at 250 hp @ ~4500 rpm, and 360 lb-ft torque @ ~2800 rpm. Rough numbers from this dyno chart from Ford Racing:
In reply to goingnowherefast :
Thanks a bunch,no E85 anywhere around me in Canuck land:(
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