Karts: where to start?

I do have a local sanctioning body, and I need to go attend some more races, but what I keep finding sorely lacking in my googling is a good solid description of the existing classes and where one might start, and so forth. There's got to be some standardization so I don't have to extract my entire understanding from strangers in the pits, right?

The entire New Racer page of the local sanctioning body's site is:
"this is sprint kart; pic below" (picture is missing)
"this is a road race cart; pic below" (picture also missing).

Descriptions of the most popular classes with their defining characteristics would be awesome...

I'd also love to hear from folks who've done the math and gone this way or other ways. I found an old, not very useful thread from 2008 where GPS was contemplating going karting, but he's clearly decided to jump a different direction with both feet and complete wallet.

I remember going to one race and coming away fairly excited about TaG karts (possibly with compatible but less expensive engines?), and then finding out that one of those little singles costs more to rebuild than a Miata engine (or at least a sealed unit's rebuild with labor is more than a rebuilt Miata engine)... And there seemed to be some uncertainty that the cheaper kart tires didn't need to be replaced so often as to make Spec Miata tire life look compelling...

The lack of need for trailer and storing another complete car is compelling, of course.

Anyhow, I suspect GRM knows karts. Improve my knowledge void!

I run stock moto shifter with Portland Karting and Pats Acres. PKA uses IKF rules, and unfortunately you have to be a member or send them money before you can get a rule book to see what their classes are and how they are set up. But I can try to work this off the top of my head:

The typical lawn mowers are Briggs world formula and the clone class which uses harbor freight engines. Both have spec pipes and intakes but I don't know much about them other than that.

The two stroke classes are Yamaha, using the Good old KT100, TaG using the various IAME and PRD engines, Rotax Max (the expensive one) and stock moto shifter, using spec CR125 engines.

Entry costs for PKA are $65 for a race once you are a member. Practices are typically $40 for non members all day. There usually isn't many of is there on a practice day, and it's mostly shifters. Pats runs a little more.

My biggest expense is tires. A set of MGs is $212, and I usually get a fresh set for each race day, and practice on them afterward. Shifters tend to destroy the inside edges on the fronts and there's not much you can do about it. Typically I will burn through 2 gallons or so of 110 on a practice day. A transponder is required for racing, you can rent them for $15, or purchase a subscription based version for $105, or outright ownership for $300.

For stock moto, an engine package is around $2500. It's a special kit engine that uses a 99 engine and 96 6-speed transmission. A top end rebuild is a little over $100 if you do it yourself, and you can get a whole season out of them easy.
My 2006 CRG has the smallest, lightest brake system they made, and I tend to go through rear pads extremely quick. I think I changed them 5 times this year, but my dad's intrepid went all year on the same pads. I have a minimum weight of 385lbs, kart and driver. Most classes are less than that, I believe.

The best description I've heard about karts is that they are like vintage motocross bikes. They will shake themselves apart constantly. I'm always checking bolts and looking things over on my chassis, especially since we get to 80 down the front straight. Most Karters can't work on them either, mine had a bunch of issues when I first got it that required completely rebuilding it to correct properly.

I hope that helps a little bit. I'm not sure about the rules for the other classes, unfortunately.

Start with a Clone Kart for a season and see if you really like it. This also allows you to get to know club members who may let a well setup kart go for cheap!

Hey ransom,

I've been trying to figure this stuff out too. This has been a helpful place to go so far: http://karting.4cycle.com/showthread.php?1162-I-can-t-make-heads-or-tails-of-this-stuff!

ransom wrote: I do have a local sanctioning body ....

There's a club & three tracks near me and I thought about joining as a less expensive way to get on track. (Limerock is 2 hrs. away) One course was a road course that just disappeared. When I went there it was replaced with a tiny, tiny oval.

I walked around the pits, met the president of the club who offered to let me take his kart out after the day's racing. It was entertaining, but not exciting. Upon dropping the flag one guy up front swerved to create a hole and then held that spot right to the end because the straights were ~30 ft. long.

I asked the president about the old road course; "Look around, we've got 55 cars here today. With the road track we got 12. Everybody likes the oval."

I drove his B&S powered kart, then drove a 16hp Mini Cup car powered by Honda.

Go to your local venue and walk around the pits, everyone loves to talk about their car! Ask about the classes and you'll learn that people like to bitch also. Is this the place or the people you want to hang with on a weekend?

Walk the pits.

Dan

I was thinking along the same lines as ransom. I don't have (free) room for a full size trailer and car, so the size of the carts is appealing.

Also it seems to be a little bit cheaper to get into.

And I think 914driver is right about walking the pits. Trouble here is winter is on its way!

Karts are sort of cheaper, and sort of not. You're buying more lower priced items, and doing more maintenance, but it's easier to work on. As stated above, without any suspension EVERYTHING rattles loose, and EVERYTHING is a wear item. Fuel tanks crack, tie rods bend as do wheels, frames get flexy or get warped in an accident, bodywork falls off if you're not careful, axles bend, EVERYTHING goes bad.

I've been autocrossing a modified Honda shifter for 2 years now. Piston rings I replace twice a year, tires twice. I just replaced the fuel tank for the second time because someone thought holding 8 liters of fuel with a single M8 bolt is a good idea.

More later, looks like a server just went down.

I'm going to drive an electric kart at an indoor track Monday night.

I did karts for a while. If you want to run up front it is very expensive.

I am trying to find someplace very local for the kiddos and having very little luck... looking forward to hearing more about this.

OP, you and zipty need to get together over a beverage and talk for a while. With winter coming now would be the time to buy in because folks are moving up or moving out.

Thanks, guys!

zipty, thanks for the details! That's the closest thing to a rough accounting of costs I've gotten so far. I wonder whether the non-shifters get more life out of tires... I'm guessing the fronts' inner edges get cooked due to having front brakes and having some baked-in negative camber?

Unfortunately, I'm out of town for the race this Sunday, but there's one more in mid-December (apparently kart rain tires exist for a reason

android, thanks for the link; more bits and pieces, but there was some good overview in that. I wonder how active the KT100 stuff is around here. (Looks like reasonably well (PDF), but no points series, which is fine, especially for starters.) Though I have to say, the TaG aspect is compelling; there's just no way I'm going to try to cajole my girlfriend or other friends into spending a weekend day starting my kart... I'm sure folks are willing to help out, but it feels awkward to show up relying on folks to help me out. Anybody manage to start 'em skateboard-style?

I need to figure out what I'm trying to figure out. I guess fundamentally right now I'm trying not to go much longer without getting some kind of racing in and driving practice, I don't find the local indoor place totally satisfying, and my primary autocross project car is second in line and is going to be a huge project, so I don't see having that running before the 2015 autox season at the earliest... But whatever I do can't eat all my project resources.

EDIT: Yes, the answer may be Miata...

You would be surprised how helpful people are to the new guy. Go to the race in December and sniff around. It would probably be cheapest to start in the 4 stroke class to cut your teeth.

In reply to TRoglodyte:

Sounds like a plan!

I love that in paranoid_android's link, there's a chart of engines by name and horsepower, and one of the pairs is "B&S 5hp: 12hp"...

ransom wrote: In reply to TRoglodyte: Sounds like a plan! I love that in paranoid_android's link, there's a chart of engines by name and horsepower, and one of the pairs is "B&S 5hp: 12hp"...

Yep, pull the governor, work some voodoo in the motor, and you can easily double the horsepower. LOTS of displacement for not much power in those. (then again considering I"m in the 40hp from 125cc range, everything is down on power)

I have run in Tag, Rotax, Kt100, & Clone. I was lucky enough to find a mentor that helped me along the way. I have seen many people start in TAG, just to walk away within a year because they are not competitive and the learning curb is steep. My advice is to go to the track see which class has the closest racing.

In 2014, my local kart rack is phasing out the clone class (As is WKA but AKRA is still on board), which I have ran the past 3 years and had a blast. They are replacing the class with the Brigg L0206. Briggs engine is sealed to try to prevent cheating and should be able to do a handful of seasons before needing a rebuild. The negative is the upfront cost is more expensive and the rebuilds are more expensive because you have to send them to a shop to be rebuilt and sealed. I am on the fence on what to do because I do not want to run by myself, but I like the idea that I do not have to mess with my engine and can concentrate more in setting my kart up. The clone was certainly inexpensive, we mandated used tires and played with stock rules, but the rule changes every year and the blue printed engine, turned a $100 engine to a $500-$700 engine. If you decide to run clone but the claimer rule can sometimes offset it if it is at $250.

My budget in clone was $600 which include all entry fee's for 13 races, transponder, gas, replacement parts, spares, & food. Next year I will probably have the same budget, but I will run fewer races :(.

I am also looking at 2 cycle probably Kt100 because I do not have the funds to even be mid-pack in Tag (Tag is very competitive in my region). Kt100 are reliable other than the crank, but you have to fiddle with the carb to get it right. The engine & Carb have to be blueprinted otherwise you do not have a shot to be competitive. The only thing that is hold me back is that my tire budget will go up, from $0 to a couple hundred .

In reply to trigun7469:

Curious to see how that maps locally. That seems like a very reasonable budget for that much seat time and racing...

ransom wrote: In reply to trigun7469: Curious to see how that maps locally. That seems like a very reasonable budget for that much seat time and racing...

It comes down to how much you want to spend, you can buy a new chassis for over $4k+ and pay for a clone engine built by one of the top builders for $700+ or a ICC motor for $5k+. I instead bought a used chassis for $500 and bought a race ready engine for $450. I trailer my kart with my car and still get 30mpg. I have won races and have been competitive, but I am not going to the nationals and lighting the world on fire. I don't have the room or a equipment for a car, during the winter months, I stand up my kart and put it in the back of the garage and it hardly takes any room.

I see people have huge operations, and people can defiantly spend car money on karts. I run at PIRC and we have people that run nationals and they spend gobs of money on their equipment. I am just looking to get some cheap track time and if I have any money left over then I may do a AAD in chumpcar/lemons. There are always money wars in any form of racing, so if you go karting choose a budget and stick to it and have fun.

You described exactly what I want to do trigun. No big budget, something reliable, but fast enough to be fun.

As long as I don't fall into a group of shiny happy people it should be fun!

How do you go about choosing/finding a chassis?

trigun7469 wrote:

ransom wrote: In reply to trigun7469: Curious to see how that maps locally. That seems like a very reasonable budget for that much seat time and racing...

It comes down to how much you want to spend, you can buy a new chassis for over $4k+ and pay for a clone engine built by one of the top builders for $700+ or a ICC motor for $5k+. I instead bought a used chassis for $500 and bought a race ready engine for $450. I trailer my kart with my car and still get 30mpg. I have won races and have been competitive, but I am not going to the nationals and lighting the world on fire. I don't have the room or a equipment for a car, during the winter months, I stand up my kart and put it in the back of the garage and it hardly takes any room. I see people have huge operations, and people can defiantly spend car money on karts. I run at PIRC and we have people that run nationals and they spend gobs of money on their equipment. I am just looking to get some cheap track time and if I have any money left over then I may do a AAD in chumpcar/lemons. There are always money wars in any form of racing, so if you go karting choose a budget and stick to it and have fun.

paranoid_android74 wrote: You described exactly what I want to do trigun. No big budget, something reliable, but fast enough to be fun.

I would argue that it's less about speed and more about people to race with. I've seen WAY too many guys buy a shifter thinking they need a "fast" kart instead of a "toy" kart and be beyond their element and get quickly frustrated. However, there's usually a bunch of clone guys running, close racing and enjoying the snot out of it.

I've heard multiple times that the equivalent car experience to a shifter kart is a formula car.

We've chased karts for many years, both local and national. Trying to get a longer response drafted, but work keeps getting in the way.....

-Rob

I know what you mean about work getting in the way! I don't work in front of a computer, and forum time for me is limited in the evenings.

Rob you actually described what I was trying to say. I would want to be fast enough to hang with a few others, and I am all about the fun and comradery. In fact if it gets too intense competition wise, I will likely lose interest. What's the point if it isn't fun?

rob_lewis wrote:

paranoid_android74 wrote: You described exactly what I want to do trigun. No big budget, something reliable, but fast enough to be fun.

I would argue that it's less about speed and more about people to race with. I've seen WAY too many guys buy a shifter thinking they need a "fast" kart instead of a "toy" kart and be beyond their element and get quickly frustrated. However, there's usually a bunch of clone guys running, close racing and enjoying the snot out of it. I've heard multiple times that the equivalent car experience to a shifter kart is a formula car. We've chased karts for many years, both local and national. Trying to get a longer response drafted, but work keeps getting in the way..... -Rob

Back when I was racing karts, a set of tires would last forever. At the beginning of the season, I would put two new tires because I thought I should. New chain, check the clutch and brake. tune up the engine and I was good to go. and we didn't run no stinking lawn mower engine. Just like car racing costs have escalated.

I raced KT100 Sr. Sportsman class for years as an adult. Fun class. Inexpensive.

I always found Ekartingnews.com to be a great source of info - especially the forums.

http://ekartingnews.com/forums/

Good luck.

In Response to paranoid_android74 :

There is a lot info out on the interweb about getting chassis's, so I merely have only a opinion on this subject. I would look at what everybody runs locally and try and find a used chassis. If something breaks then you can always ask your neighbor. If a used chassis in the manufacturer is not available you can look at where the chassis was made, as most Euro karts are more less the same (made in the same factory in Italy) or they have aftermarket parts that will work. Same goes with most American karts, most American karts use MCP brakes and have similar parts. Once you established that you should make a decision if you want to run 4 cycle or 2 cycle, as the chassis are different for each kart. I used a Birel R32 it is a 2 cycle kart and made it work for 4cycle as I prefer a euro kart (lighter and it fits my driving style). It is not ideal but I can change to 2 cycle with no issue, but be careful if you have to re-weld bars to make a 4cycle engine work you are better off finding a chassis specific to that engine. Coyotes are typically plentiful and good American 4cycle chassis.

Look for fresh weld marks if you can bring a scale and weigh all 4 corners and make sure it lines up properly. Last thing you want is a bent chassis. Also be careful on the type of chassis as you don't want to get a oval kart for sprint/RR and vice versa. See this picture for a example of a oval kart, notice on driver left side the tubing curls

Below is a straight rail kart for sprint/RR

Well, my weekend travel plans got kiboshed... Maybe I'll make it out to the track on Sunday. OTOH, headway on garage insulation should probably take precedence over trying to find more ways to spread myself thin...