Kia Nu engine: now what?

In reply to Stealthtercel :

Ask Mazduece how responsive and receptive an automaker can be to a well traveled thread on the Internet.

Or Hennesy Honda of Woodstock, for that matter

Suprf1y said:

I don't know how seafoam is going to correct, or even affect piston slap. Maybe somebody can explain it to me.

And despite Bob's self assessment of being the real oil guy, his likewise dubious assessment of 10W40 being thick as sludge may be another slight exaggeration. I'm not sure that it's use would make any difference, positive or negative.

10w40 PLUS Lucas stabilizer. 10% Lucas into a normal 10-40 will usually come in between 19-21cSt. A standard 40 weight oil (0/5/10/15-40) runs 12-15cSt and a 5-20 that this engine calls for runs ~7cSt. 21cSt is the low end for a 140 gear lube. Not an exaggeration. 

As for the seafoam, if it's a misdiagnosis (gee, that never happens at a dealer) and is actually valve noise seafoam will correct that issue. 

In reply to Suprf1y :

it wont affect piston slap, but it will clean a carbon knock out of it, 

In reply to Bob the REAL oil guy. :

As much as it pains me to admit it (because I love giving Bob a hard time) you are mostly right and I'm mostly wrong. I didn't see the Lucas part, and depending on which one you use, that could happen. I thought we were just talking 10W40.

What if you were to find a thicker head gasket or stack two of them? Seems like that would be cheaper than either current option and actually fix the problem.

In reply to white_fly:

I don't follow how a thicker head gasket will help here. Can you explain?

As I understand it, the first Nu engines (the 1.8s) suffered from having pieces of their piston coatings come off, leading to pistons that were too narrow for their bores, leading to piston slap.  If that's now happening to the 2.0s (which right now is a very large "if"), then, as they say, "Well, there's your problem!"

Right now we're at the stage of getting a definitive diagnosis without immobilizing a DD long enough to take the engine apart for a look-see.

In reply to white_fly :

Are you thinking piston to valve contact? I could see head gaskets affecting that.  This is about a piston rocking back and forth in the cylinder.  

Suprf1y said:

In reply to pinchvalve :

That's a first gen Rondo, which everybody knows is bulletproof.

His is a second gen. It's becoming obvious now they tried to do too much too early and it's just too much awesome all at once, even for the pistons. I'm surprised he hasn't blown the welds on the intake yet

That would explain why we never got the second gen Rondo.  The first gen set the bar impossibly high.

I'm surprised we made it to page 2 without someone recommending a NU engine.

Or REEVES vanity plate

The only thing that will fix piston slap is new pistons. 

Drive it till it lets go. That may be tomorrow, it may also never happen. 

See, that is exactly my problem.  I have a really hard time putting my granddaughter in the car at 9:00 at night and heading out on an empty rural highway on the basis that it might not pick that day to quit.

Discussions with the dealer commence shortly.

Suprf1y said:

In reply to Bob the REAL oil guy. :

As much as it pains me to admit it (because I love giving Bob a hard time) you are mostly right and I'm mostly wrong. I didn't see the Lucas part, and depending on which one you use, that could happen. I thought we were just talking 10W40.

 

DUH. Of course I was right! 

Reviving this thread to report that I have accepted Kia's offer of a new short block for $2000 all in (not the $7145 as first quoted.)  Apparently this would have been closer to free if I had been more of a choirboy with oil changes, but, yeah, a couple of them were kind of overdue when I looked at the records.

I understand the 2.0 GDIs in the Fortes (2012-2014?) are about to be the subject of a letter from Kia Canada, but my dealer service manager doesn't know if it's a TSB or a recall or an extended warranty or what.  If that policy (whatever it turns out to be) is subsequently extended to the Rondo with the same engine, then my $2000 will be refunded.

So, as of now, it looks like Kia is Doing The Right Thing, and I appreciate it.  My dealer is estimating 3 or 4 weeks to get the parts.  Until then, I'm trusting the diagnosis that it's "just" piston slap, not bearings.  I can put up with the noise and the lack of power for another month if I don't have to worry about Abrupt Block Ventilation or something.

Wife's Forte is definitely not lacking in power. with this engine. Although the Rondo has it by a few hundred pounds so that could be the difference. 

Stealthtercel said:

Reviving this thread to report that I have accepted Kia's offer of a new short block for $2000 all in (not the $7145 as first quoted.)  Apparently this would have been closer to free if I had been more of a choirboy with oil changes, but, yeah, a couple of them were kind of overdue when I looked at the records.

This might be a good time for that can of Seafoam...clean up the top end a bit and send all the crap out before everything gets swapped over to the new short block.

In reply to BtROG: The "lack of power" here directly relates to the advent of the piston slap problem.  Minor highway hills that the car formerly didn't notice, it now kicks down 1 or even 2 gears for.  (It's a regular route, so the degradation is pretty clear.)  I'm also getting what feels like an intermittent miss, which is slowly becoming worse.

In reply to Woody: Did that once already, about a month ago, but I agree that making sure everything is clean before the swap makes sense.

This reminds me that I'll have to ask whether the new block comes with new plugs & wires, and get some if it doesn't.

It's a short block!

If you Google "Kia Rondo piston slap," this thread is the first thing that comes up, so it's only fair to let everyone know how it turned out.

Exactly three months after my original post, I am very pleased to announce the arrival of a mostly new engine in my Rondo, which is now purring like a kitten instead of sounding like it's gargling cutlery.  For the first 1000 km I won't take it much over 4000 rpm, but even driving gently it's nice to have power back.

Kevin, the Service Manager at Durham Kia in Oshawa, gets major thanks for making a case for me with Kia Canada and getting them to pay 70% of the cost for a vehicle that I bought used and that is that is well out of warranty.  (The new engine went in at almost exactly 130000 km.)  He also provided a loaner Forte for two days.  And Kia Canada definitely gets points for understanding what "customer service" and "goodwill" mean.

did they tear down the old engine?  would be interested to see the skirt wear, if it was piston slap.

Sorry for the delayed reply.  Yes, they did do at least a preliminary autopsy at the dealer.  There was indeed scoring on the cylinder walls.  Originally, I was told the piston slap was caused because a high-tech coating that was applied to the pistons unfortunately flaked off, but now I'm hearing an opinion that the pistons are basically shorter than they should be... which is kind of concerning. 

In reply to Stealthtercel :

Honda did the same thing with the k24. Used the wrong pistons and rings in the wrong blocks. They were burning massive amounts of oil and required rebuilds in the first 5k miles and in some cases short blocks. 

In reply to Bob:

So, was the Honda thing a failure of design or a failure of inventory control?  I can imagine both kinds of errors happening in a large industrial organization, but frankly I'd rather be driving behind a new short block made in a factory where there are new giant yellow warning stickers and everybody from the plant manager down to the guy with the broom knows that THESE pistons go in THAT block, than one where I got the Version 2.0 pistons that were redesigned on the fly and might, or might not, be the right fix.

Stealthtercel said:

Sorry for the delayed reply.  Yes, they did do at least a preliminary autopsy at the dealer.  There was indeed scoring on the cylinder walls.  Originally, I was told the piston slap was caused because a high-tech coating that was applied to the pistons unfortunately flaked off, but now I'm hearing an opinion that the pistons are basically shorter than they should be... which is kind of concerning. 

I thought piston slap happened at the bottom of the bore, usually from changing stroke/rod angle. Wouldn’t shorter pistons prevent slap by making an effectively shorter stroke in relation to the piston sleeve travel?