spacecadet said:I am kinda disappointed you dragged this into the GRM forum.
Why? I have found the GRM community to be pretty fair about things in general and thought it would be a good topic of discussion. I'm not trying to solve the problem and didn't ask for solutions, just a discussion. You and I feel the same way about the Ladies classes BTW.
spacecadet said:Can anyone show me another form of Motorsports that has anything close to the same female participation?
I can. Two of the largest stage rally events here in the US this very year:
Susquehannock Trail Performance Rally this year had 104 total entrants, of which 17 were female . Which is about 16%.
New England Forest Rally had 112 total entrants, of which 19 were female (almost 17%)
And more and more females are starting to be involved in stage rally (and rallycross) here in the US each year. Going to other rallies, some may have less and some may have more (depending on who runs in what series....ARA, NRS, CARS, Rally America, etc), but there is no question that there are a statistically significant and quickly growing number of women involved in rally. If you go to a rally, I'd say an even higher proportion of women are there volunteering, with the intent of someday competing.
I realize this isn't anywhere near the scale of autocross in terms of total participation, but it is another form of motorsport nonetheless, and one that is growing in popularity, especially with women.
In reply to loosecannon :
Not to intrude, but since seems relevant and should add to the discussion, I would be interested in hearing more about why your wife in particular specifically chooses to run ladies rather than open and if she would still desire to compete at the national level if there were no Ladies sub-class?
In reply to Driven5 :
I have no doubt she would keep coming if there were no Ladies class. However, she also is pretty sure that participation by women would drop if the Ladies classes were dropped. I can't believe how many words I have typed on this thread that I landed up just deleting. I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings or stir things up, must be my age ;)
Driven5 said:In reply to loosecannon :
Not to intrude, but since seems relevant and should add to the discussion, I would be interested in hearing more about why your wife in particular specifically chooses to run ladies rather than open and if she would still desire to compete at the national level if there were no Ladies sub-class?
Ok, I had typed a long response to your message then deleted most of it and now you added to your post. My wife was not into racing when I met her but she did like excitement and an adrenalin rush. I was already on the road to starting an indoor kart track and once it opened, she started work there and also started racing karts pretty regularly. She got quite good at it, actually and when we started a kart league that her and were both in, she was every bit as quick as me. This went on for a while and she noticed that she was usually the only female in the league even though 25% of our customers were women. She started a Ladies Kart league and immediately filled it up with women who had no previous desire to race in the Open league. This was probably the peak of her driving skill because she did so much of it. We autocrossed locally as well and she was pretty good in our JCW MINI and later on a 2004 Boxster. Then we went to nationals and she competed in a borrowed Solstice in CSL and finished 3rd. The next year she was in the Boxster in CSL and finished 2nd by just 1/1000th second, closest finish in SCCA history. The next year she borrowed a BML car and won the class.
After her win in BML, I had finished Pink Panther 1.0 and it was a handful to drive and had many problems. Still, she cut great lights consistently in Pro Solo with the car and made it farther than I did. I think it was downhill for her racing after that, because the car was not just hop in and drive like the Boxster, so she started skipping local events and her seat time went down to nothing until we went to Nationals. She would come DFL in EML and was not having fun but did it because she loves me and she actually enjoyed the friendliness of the other female competitors. Then we planned on running my DD2 in KM and KML so she did some practicing in my kart and was setting decent times. However, last minute we got word that my DD2 was not allowed in KM/KML so we scrambled to borrow a 125cc shifter kart. She stalled it on every run, didn't get any times from either day and I was lucky she didn't quit racing altogether. The next year she sat it out and didn't run at all. The year after that she ran my DD2 (now allowed) in KML and finished 2nd or 3rd (I can't remember).
By then I had finished Pink Panther 4.0 but the car still had problems with inside tire spin so we came to Nationals and did endless runs on the test course to try and fix. This was no fun for her and we hardly did any socializing or attending festivities. She ran in EML and was hopelessly outclassed by Sean Kiesel. Last year she decided to run in EM with me because it was easier logistically to prepare the car just once per day and once we were done, we were done and could do other things. She liked that so much that she did it again at SpringNats and Nationals this year. We actually had a great time this year because the car was working well, was fun to drive and we didn't have to test much. I hope this gets her to race it more locally so she can get back to the skill level she used to be at. If she does that, I'm sure she can take the fight to Sean Kiesel and she may go back to EML, especially if she has someone like Denise Cashmore co-driving with her.
Thank you for the wordiness and the fact Ms. B was on Kiesel's a$$ this year @ Nats speaks volumes.
I just had a passing thought: Is there any chance that the proposed elimination of ladies classes is less about the ladies, and more about the increasing difficulty of choosing who to allow into the ladies classes?
Having worked grid for SCCA Regional events and yes the one Nationals I have made it to, having four drivers in a car is going to create issues with the "5 minute" rule. Managing that gap so that there is not a competitive advantage of the tire temperature or heat soaking of " pick your component" is going to add time to the event.
When I am running grid, for a run group, on a local basis I know who the players are and they know how to manage what they need. We do not let four drivers in a car in the same run group. Having three drivers get's to happen on occasion but the bodies working the course can always tell when they are being held on to for that tail end charlie hot lapping to get his runs.
On a side note, there are a number of current "ladies"graduates of the SCCA junior kart program running in the open classes that have an impressive amount of Nationals hardware in their collection. A growing number of these "current Junior" kids are on their way into cars. They are use to beating the boys.
snailmont5oh said:I just had a passing thought: Is there any chance that the proposed elimination of ladies classes is less about the ladies, and more about the increasing difficulty of choosing who to allow into the ladies classes?
I see where you're going there, but in the end the fact still remains that women can inherently drive an autocross car just as fast as guys since it's not based on physical strength or body type. So assuming a guy had a sex-change and "became a woman" it's not like "she" would just automatically be able to dominate a ladies class for any reason, unless as a man he was already a top driver with a top car.
But this being autocross, and how *serious* certain people are about it, I'm sure someone will "identify as a woman" in order to try to get a national championship through the back door haha.....
irish44j said:spacecadet said:Can anyone show me another form of Motorsports that has anything close to the same female participation?
I can. Two of the largest stage rally events here in the US this very year:
Susquehannock Trail Performance Rally this year had 104 total entrants, of which 17 were female . Which is about 16%.
New England Forest Rally had 112 total entrants, of which 19 were female (almost 17%)
And more and more females are starting to be involved in stage rally (and rallycross) here in the US each year. Going to other rallies, some may have less and some may have more (depending on who runs in what series....ARA, NRS, CARS, Rally America, etc), but there is no question that there are a statistically significant and quickly growing number of women involved in rally. If you go to a rally, I'd say an even higher proportion of women are there volunteering, with the intent of someday competing.
I realize this isn't anywhere near the scale of autocross in terms of total participation, but it is another form of motorsport nonetheless, and one that is growing in popularity, especially with women.
Size of Autocross or not, it's good to see that there is another motorsport with female participation on the rise.
loosecannon said:spacecadet said:I am kinda disappointed you dragged this into the GRM forum.
Why? I have found the GRM community to be pretty fair about things in general and thought it would be a good topic of discussion. I'm not trying to solve the problem and didn't ask for solutions, just a discussion. You and I feel the same way about the Ladies classes BTW.
This is the only forum I post in myself so I get what you mean about the community and agree with you.
I said I was disappointed because you're giving further airtime to this idea that wants to remove the Ladies national program and replace it with a hollow shell participation class.
irish44j said:But this being autocross, and how *serious* certain people are about it, I'm sure someone will "identify as a woman" in order to try to get a national championship
It is fully within the allowance of any competitor to file an unsportsmanlike conduct protest in that situation, or any other situation they feel it is warranted.
In reply to spacecadet :
Oh, I see. Ok, that makes sense but at some point their proposal may go out to the membership for a vote or comments and it would be good if people know what is going on before that happens.
jr02518 said:Having worked grid for SCCA Regional events and yes the one Nationals I have made it to, having four drivers in a car is going to create issues with the "5 minute" rule. Managing that gap so that there is not a competitive advantage of the tire temperature or heat soaking of " pick your component" is going to add time to the event.
When they talk about 4 drivers in one car, that is spread over 2 classes (Open class and Club class) so nothing would change over what it is now
Years ago, Toyman and I raced remote control boats. I refused to run in the ladies class. For a short time when we started autocross, my daughter and I did run ladies class but we were trying to get 4 drivers thru one car. 2 and 2 worked for us at the learning stages. I will support any woman in my region that wants a ladies class.... however... for me personally, I only want that trophy from open class. I am either good enough for that trophy or I'm not. I do not want one just because I wear a bra.
The OP stated that 15% is not enough female participation. What is the correct number?
irish44j said:spacecadet said:Can anyone show me another form of Motorsports that has anything close to the same female participation?
I can. Two of the largest stage rally events here in the US this very year:
Susquehannock Trail Performance Rally this year had 104 total entrants, of which 17 were female . Which is about 16%.
New England Forest Rally had 112 total entrants, of which 19 were female (almost 17%)
And more and more females are starting to be involved in stage rally (and rallycross) here in the US each year. Going to other rallies, some may have less and some may have more (depending on who runs in what series....ARA, NRS, CARS, Rally America, etc), but there is no question that there are a statistically significant and quickly growing number of women involved in rally. If you go to a rally, I'd say an even higher proportion of women are there volunteering, with the intent of someday competing.
I realize this isn't anywhere near the scale of autocross in terms of total participation, but it is another form of motorsport nonetheless, and one that is growing in popularity, especially with women.
I bet NHRA is in the range, particularly at the elite level.
T.J. said:The OP stated that 15% is not enough female participation. What is the correct number?
Like 50%, if we want it to represent the population as a whole.
In reply to thatsnowinnebago :
That doesn't make sense to me. Shouldn't the percentage reflect the portion of the population that has an interest in driving events? I venture a guess that it is not a 50/50 even split between the sexes. I don't think anyone knows what the right value is, so the whole idea of trying to increase it seems silly to me. Also, if a lot more males take up the sport and go to nationals the percentage of females may drop even if their absolute numbers go up if they don't get as many new women drivers.
I don't think it's a mystery that men are more interested in motorsports than women. At my kart track, women make up 25% of my customers and I think that's going to be about the limit we will ever see at the Solo Nationals.
In reply to loosecannon :
That seems like a reasonable number to me.
The whole ladies class thing is just another item that makes autocross look...odd to those of us who have moved on to road racing. No ladies classes in road racing. There are a few GUYS who wished there was because they get beat by some of the women but the gals seem to have no interest in such gender-based classifications.
ddavidv said:The whole ladies class thing is just another item that makes autocross look...odd to those of us who have moved on to road racing. No ladies classes in road racing. There are a few GUYS who wished there was because they get beat by some of the women but the gals seem to have no interest in such gender-based classifications.
What you're speaking of is a perception issue.
SCCA National Solo does not have Mens and Womens gender based classes, we have open and ladies classes. Women who don't want to compete in Ladies class are always welcomed to compete in open class. But for those women who do want to compete in a class of women only, that option also exists.
Women have multiple options on where to compete and as such we get women on both sides, women who compete in the open classes have brought this proposal forward. It's being met with resistance from women who compete in the ladies classes and Men like myself who don't understand why women being able to choose where they compete is a bad thing.
so implementing a system like this in road racing would not 100% prevent the men from being beat up on by the women.
In reply to loosecannon :
Thanks for expanding more on your wife's involvement, as I appreciate the insight into your perspective.
On the one hand, I can see how the current system does increase female participation. On the other hand, I still don't think it's necessarily the best system for promoting female participation either.
However, I also believe that any changes (or lack there of) should be driven by data...Which I don't get the feeling of being the case coming from either side of the current proposal.
spacecadet said:irish44j said:But this being autocross, and how *serious* certain people are about it, I'm sure someone will "identify as a woman" in order to try to get a national championship
It is fully within the allowance of any competitor to file an unsportsmanlike conduct protest in that situation, or any other situation they feel it is warranted.
I was being facetious ;)
spacecadet said:don't understand why women being able to choose where they compete is a bad thing.
My perception of the opinion of many of the autocrossing women I know is that being singled out to have an easy option is demeaning in a way. Similar to "Oh, you have ovaries, you can choose for us to go easy on you if you want and only run against the others who are similarly disadvantaged".
I have to say, I kinda get it.
Dont get me wrong, I am sure there are plenty of women who dont mind it.
I have a feeling that the best way to resolve it is to have a membership vote of the women. Do the majority of them want it to stay or go? Or have the middle option mentioned?
Not our call as dudes.
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