Learn me: 00-05 Celica GT-S

After looking at some Focus SVT's, I've been trying to find something else I'd like with a little more reliability.

I've been looking at the 2000 to 2005 Celica GT-S. What are your opinions on these cars? Quick? Reliable? Fun? I want to do autox and HPDE's. No rallyx is in my future. Would this be better than the Focus SVT? I didn't want to start another vs. thread.

In the same typical Craigslist fashion, the yolo swag tax is high and clean unmodified cars are hard to come by, but I'm trying to be patient. There are some nice cars online for $7-8k that are just insanely high priced IMO.

http://charlotte.craigslist.org/cto/4211893187.html

I'm interested in this car. Is the 172k cause for concern? The fart can and euro lights scare me, but the new tires/brakes are enticing.

The 2zz is a great little motor- though I don't know that i'd pay 3600 for one with ricer mods and that kind of miles. Who knows what else is wrong with it.

My brother had a new one in 2000, it blew up after 6,000 miles. The engine isnt' the problem, theres something goofy with the transmission that won't stop careless people from missing the 3-4 shift, causing a 3-2 shift which can result in more than a few bent valves and busted parts.

They are fun little cars if you don't mind the Toyota interior. The mileage isn't really an issue if it was maintained, but I don't think I would personally spend that much on a car with that many miles unless there was proof of it being maintained. You should be able to find one with less miles for not much more money.

Also whats up with all of them now missing the fuel door?

They have problems with oil starvation in hard corners. MWR sells a Moroso oil pan that solves that issue. They are sort of like a modern ITR...but much more underrated. The big gains are in the intake manifold with the 2ZZ, IIRC.

Don't they take boost fairly well, too? Like decent power gains without too much psi? Or is that the 1ZZ I'm thinking of?

What are your opinions on these cars? Quick? Reliable? Fun?

Good, followed by Yes, Yes, and Yes. I believe some people have had oiling issues under sustained side loads. Oil acculmulator and a modified oil pan would probably address 99.4% of them.

The 2zz is a great little motor- though I don't know that i'd pay 3600 for one with ricer mods

I assume you mean... the taillights? I wouldnt even replace those unless it was REALLY cheap. I'd probably just tint them.

theres something goofy with the transmission that won't stop careless people from missing the 3-4 shift, causing a 3-2 shift which can result in more than a few bent valves and busted parts.

Your idea of goofy sounds like my idea of normal.

Rufledt wrote: Don't they take boost fairly well, too? Like decent power gains without too much psi? Or is that the 1ZZ I'm thinking of?

2zz... It's what's for super sleeper in my E36 M3box prizm (that currently wears the little brother 1zz)

Vigo wrote: Your idea of goofy sounds like my idea of normal.

Not so normal when the engine it at redline in 3rd, followed by 10k rpm

Goodbye valves, water pump, oil pump, and more I can't remember. I think they just had to junk the whole thing and get a new engine since he proceeded to drive it home without oil pressure or water flowing. It didn't make it all the way (duh) but it did get a couple miles before it fried.

Vigo wrote:

What are your opinions on these cars? Quick? Reliable? Fun?

Good, followed by Yes, Yes, and Yes. I believe some people have had oiling issues under sustained side loads. Oil acculmulator and a modified oil pan would probably address 99.4% of them.

The 2zz is a great little motor- though I don't know that i'd pay 3600 for one with ricer mods

I assume you mean... the taillights? I wouldnt even replace those unless it was REALLY cheap. I'd probably just tint them.

theres something goofy with the transmission that won't stop careless people from missing the 3-4 shift, causing a 3-2 shift which can result in more than a few bent valves and busted parts.

Your idea of goofy sounds like my idea of normal.

Yeah, those tails tell me that other bad things have happened to that car that have been made back to stock.

I built one for the SCCA ITR class a few years ago. Unfortunatly I miss shifted it from 5th to 4th instead of 6th on the banking in Daytona. Needless to say it exploded violently and I heard the expensive sound of silence at 150ish...

I was never that impressed with the motor. It had a very narrow power band that felt less usable then the GS-R Integra that I was comparing it to. I never cared for the gearbox as can be attested to by my on track incident. I also never cared for the interior, which wasn't really a major concern in a race car but would be important for a DD. It did handle nicely and it had great brakes.

Lots of people compare them to Type-R Integras but the Integra in my honset oppinion is a far better car. An ITR is faster and feels more substantial

For the same money I would buy the nicest Integra GS-R I could find.

Another victim of the gearbox!

As for the engine I think the cam changes too late:

while shifting from 1 to 2 or 2 to 3 drops the RPM below that rapid drop off, so it's kinda poorly matched. I don't know why they don't make the cam change a little earlier, seems like it would smooth out the power curve, and make the gearing less of a problem all at the same time...

I purchased an 01 gt-s last year and it really depends on what you're planning on doing in terms of modifications. If you plan on staying smog legal (with any of your choices) and not upgrade more than basic intake/exhaust/ shorty header for power, it is a decent choice. If you plan on getting an race header, LSD, manifold and tune, you might as well start with an 8th gen civic si.

With the intake manifold ($1400 + motor mounts +q45 tb) and powerfc standalone tuning( 900+tuning) you're going to be spending a lot of money. LSD ($1000).

I came from an integra ls before the celica and the integra was certainly more fun to drive a low speeds- and had more torque. I could crawl in the LS's tall 3rd gear vs I can barely crawl in 2nd with the gt-s. I hypothesize that the gt-s perception of low torque might be due to it having wider, heavier wheels compared to the integra. After I put on my winter tires (15s with a slightly larger diameter/height so no gearing advantage here) my car feels almost as good as my integra did down low.

I'll have to admit, when driven in anger it is a fun car to drive, but my car rarely sees lift.

I wasn't aware that the price's were that high. You should be able to land a <140k 6-speed gt-s for 4-5.5k in good condition.

In response to the cam changover-- the tuning is "optimal" for the oem setup. Once you change the intake manifold, with tuning you can fix the hole in the torque curve and drop the changeover.

In the end, I chose it over the gsr for a few reasons. The chassis is newer/stiffer. It's not theft prone like the old hondas. It has a 6 gear and is quieter than the integra on the highway. Seating position and visibility is better in the integra, headroom better in the gt-s.

For more reliability than the focus svt, why not consider the 05-06 focus st with the 2.3 duratec engine? I believe 03-04 came with the 2.3 in green states but the gearing wasn't great. I've seen them dyno 170 with a flat torque curve with just manifold/i/h/e

2zz is win, especially with a supercharger

In reply to kanaric:

The ZZ family in general is win. Even the fixed cam 1ZZ makes a Corolla less boring than a Corolla should be.

I appreciate the responses folks.

Wow, I must say that I don't feel one single bit better about the GT-S over the SVT. A gearbox that can/will make the engine go boom if a shift is missed, and oiling problems that require a $450 Moroso Oil pan before I can even safely autocross. I'm starting to lean towards the SVT again.

Seems like both cars have their issues, but the trans/oiling issues reallllly scare me on the GT-S. In my short Craigslist browsing. There are an unusually high number of GT-S's for sale with "blown" engines. Now I see why.

ScreaminE wrote: I appreciate the responses folks. Wow, I must say that I don't feel one single bit better about the GT-S over the SVT. A gearbox that can/will make the engine go boom if a shift is missed, and oiling problems that require a $450 Moroso Oil pan before I can even safely autocross. I'm starting to lean towards the SVT again. Seems like both cars have their issues, but the trans/oiling issues reallllly scare me on the GT-S. In my short Craigslist browsing. There are an unusually high number of GT-S's for sale with "blown" engines. Now I see why.

Later years fixed the transmission issues.

Also: The cars become substantially faster with a tune that lowers the lift point. And if you do intake, header, exhaust, intake manifold, and the tune, you could very well make 220-225hp to the wheels.

They aren't perfect in stock form, but they're pretty excellent with a minor amount of work.

On the flip side, the SVT has one of the most awfully geared transmissions i've ever seen paired with an n/a 4 cylinder motor.

But if the prices are equal, i'd personally buy the Celica. You should probably drive both and see which you like better.

In reply to Swank Force One:

I will second this opinion. I don't like the Focus interior. I dislike the Celica interior slightly less. The other reason I would take the Celica over the Focus is because it's very similar to my beloved Hondas, but won't get stolen in a heartbeat.

ScreaminE wrote: I appreciate the responses folks. Wow, I must say that I don't feel one single bit better about the GT-S over the SVT. A gearbox that can/will make the engine go boom if a shift is missed, and oiling problems that require a $450 Moroso Oil pan before I can even safely autocross. I'm starting to lean towards the SVT again. Seems like both cars have their issues, but the trans/oiling issues reallllly scare me on the GT-S. In my short Craigslist browsing. There are an unusually high number of GT-S's for sale with "blown" engines. Now I see why.

The oiling issues are a concern but the oilpan cost is recoverable you can always resell it at 50 dollars less than what you've purchased it for.

The transmission problem, isn't really a problem? It's just a close gearbox with a strong return spring. There's nothing inherent wrong with the design other than it being notchier than a honda.

A lot of stories are people blowing their engine on a 3-2 upshift which should not happen if you're shifting properly in any transmission. You really just have to get used to the strong return spring, which is probably what tugged pimpm3 into 4th (or you can change it out to an updated one).

Compared the SVT the celica has a better seating position, better mpg, more power $ for $ especially if you are remaining emissions compliant. I think a lot of their gains come from an off road pipe (referred to as orp). The svt also comes with a timing belt over timing chain.

If you're not doing timing belt yourself on the svt cost it'll pretty much offset the cost of the oil pan.

The biggest only issue I'd be looking at in a GTS would be lift bolts (for a DD). I'm contemplating picking up an oil pan so I can start hpde's next season as well. Figure out your plans/goals for each platform and compare how much you'd be spending on each.

I drove a SSC Celica in a few events (GT version, not GTS) and I REALLY liked it. Much better chassis than my Cooper S. You could do anything with it, and a bit of trail brake oversteer was possible. It's one of the few FWD cars I've been in that you could rate the rear with the throttle. The MINI just goes into helpless push mode unless you start modifying it. Unlike the GTS, it was absolutely reliable. After notching up a bunch of wins, the new owner finally ended up bending it and moving on to a GTS.

In the GTS he ended up winning a couple of national championships, with the engine built by a friend, and previous owner of the GT. It was reliable as well, but you HAVE to look after the oiling issues.

All in all, this is probably my favorite FWD car, and very underrated.

Hrrrmm. I guess the Celica's issues aren't as bad as I thought. I suppose any car I'm looking at will have it's issues. I do enjoy my Tundra, so maybe I should stick with Toyota.

zz engine/c60 trans rock. 160k miles and no issues with A) oiling in my very sticky mr-spyder with 225 section ra1s and a stock oil pan and lots of track work, or B) c60 six speed either with the me or the wife doing track driving and VERY aggressive street driving, and she could barely heel toe when I did the swap. (now she can in heels ) IMHO if you miss shifts and bend valves it's not remotely a tranny issue or an engine issue.

I had engine oiling issues in the 1zz-fe in my 01 corolla during an autocross and didnt realize it till I bothered to check the oil one day at work since it was running rough. went from using no oil to low compression in cyl 4 and using 1 qt every 3k miles. I blamed it on the oil back then but by now I realize it was autocross. That was at 80k miles. I autocrossed it for two more seasons and I still DD it at 201000 miles. I just add oil every 1000 miles or so. Yes consumption went up. But I bought it new and no car payment is worth a couple quarts between changes. So is it an issue? Yes. Should it prevent you from purchasing a Celica? Heck no.