BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
8/28/16 5:08 p.m.

[Yes, I know that GRM did an article about that a few months ago. I'll be digging that out in a sec]

Just back from the track and, well, there is no way to sugar coat it. I'm slow, and I know my place (at the back of the grid ).

While I am getting faster (my average lap times seem to be falling 1-2s/event), I feel I have a long ways to go - at this point a well driven NA Miata on street tires is about 1/2s faster per lap around Thunderhill West and the ones running slicks are 3-4 seconds faster per lap than me in my RX8.

I'm 95% it's not the car - when my instructor drove the RX around Laguna Seca a couple of events back, he was running a good 5-6s faster per lap than I was and I doubt he ran it at more than 7-8/10. He also commented that he thought the setup was pretty much spot on for a dual use street/track car. He was/is more of an FWD guy (races a Civic in SCCA Pro racing) but it matches my gut feel that the car is fine and very responsive unless I manage to overwhelm the rear tires.

One that does work for me is the intentional "go slower to go faster" routine - that's usually the way for me to get the best laptime, if I try to push harder it usually has the opposite effect.

Couple of other things I noticed:

  • Confidence is key, and I find building confidence in my own abilities extremely hard. Some of this is psychological (I'm good a projecting confidence, but the monkey mind disagrees), some of it is also getting used to the car.
  • I've been pretty stressed and tired recently and that inhibits my ability to get into "The Zone". Typical example was that during one lap yesterday I suddenly forgot how to cat (well, how to heel/toe - honestly, couldn't remember the physical movement) and nearly went full agricultural.
  • I also seem to be much better at helping other people build the speed and confidence when I instruct.

As I don't get to attend that many events I find it hard to build the experience that seems to help me build speed, I am wondering what people's preferred little routines are to make sure that every lap counts towards their driver development?

Huckleberry
Huckleberry MegaDork
8/28/16 5:19 p.m.

This is a difficult question to provide specific advice without being in the right seat of your car but a few things will make the time you do pay for count:

  • be well rested the night before qualifying/racing/HPDE
  • use a predictive laptimer in the car on every lap and a GPS logger for later in the paddock. Go in and look at your laps and compare your best to the slower ones when you know traffic is not a factor in the difference. Refine until you are consistently able to turn within a 10th of your best at all times.
  • run it while your instructor drives then compare where he is doing something different than you and review it with him
  • when you are advanced solo or higher (if you are not already) pay for individual coaching from a pro and then go to an open track day immediately after and drive, drive, drive until what he worked on with you is 2nd nature
c0rbin9
c0rbin9 New Reader
8/28/16 5:43 p.m.

Look up Ross Bentley, buy his books and do everything he says. He's big on visualizing the drive and your movements as a practice method - makes sense to me.

DWNSHFT
DWNSHFT HalfDork
8/28/16 8:18 p.m.

One of the best ways to get confidence in a day is an autocross where you can run lots and lots of laps.

Also, make sure you have forgiving tires.

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
8/28/16 8:41 p.m.

Just floor it into turn one and yank the E-Brake and yell Yee Haw!!!!

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
8/28/16 9:35 p.m.
Huckleberry wrote: This is a difficult question to provide specific advice without being in the right seat of your car but a few things will make the time you do pay for count: - be well rested the night before qualifying/racing/HPDE

Thanks for the pointers, they're very much appreciated.

Being well rested seems to be problem #1 for me this year - I've been pretty tired overall and have yet to make it to the hotel the night before a track event at a civilised time (or ended up working until midnight from the hotel). Heck, at the last time trials event our chief instructor did ask if I even felt fit enough to drive and instruct.

- use a predictive laptimer in the car on every lap and a GPS logger for later in the paddock. Go in and look at your laps and compare your best to the slower ones when you know traffic is not a factor in the difference. Refine until you are consistently able to turn within a 10th of your best at all times.

I'm normally running a phone-based data logger and do some ad-hoc analysis. That does seem to help a little - heck, a fair part of my job is "know thy data" so that's kinda second nature to me. Interesting that you mentioned consistency, that's something I have struggled with and it's something I'm trying to work on. It was a major hallelujah moment for me at my last event at MLRS when I managed to run four consecutive laps within a few 10th of a second (but about 5s off my best lap time). At the event yesterday, my laptimes were all over the place again, with a variation of up to 5s that were only partially explained by traffic.

- run it while your instructor drives then compare where he is doing something different than you and review it with him

To me that's part of the problem, I'm actually a volunteer time trials/HPDE instructor with my local SCCA region so during the times that I might be able to get an instructor, I'm actually out in the right seat myself.

- when you are advanced solo or higher (if you are not already) pay for individual coaching from a pro and then go to an open track day immediately after and drive, drive, drive until what he worked on with you is 2nd nature

I did pay for some pro coaching earlier in the year and it did help, but there were a few weeks between the coaching session and the next timed event. It still served as a confidence booster and helped me work out some of the issues that worked against me in the RX8 (it's much more sensitive to being on the throttle in corners that I'm used to, for example, and I'm still jumping on the throttle a little too early).

I'm actually going to visit a certain Mr Bondurant's fine establishment in the next few weeks, mostly to get some proper coaching from people who do it a lot (rather than a pro racer with a sideline business of some coaching), with the SCCA Race license being more of a nice side effect. And of course a few hours of track time on consecutive days rather than 4-6 event a year with only about 1 1/2h track time at each event.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
8/28/16 9:37 p.m.
c0rbin9 wrote: Look up Ross Bentley, buy his books and do everything he says. He's big on visualizing the drive and your movements as a practice method - makes sense to me.

I've recently bought his "consolidated" book and am working my way through it. Thanks for confirming that it was a good idea to buy it .

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
8/28/16 9:47 p.m.
DWNSHFT wrote: One of the best ways to get confidence in a day is an autocross where you can run lots and lots of laps.

I haven't run the RX8 at an autocross at all since I've had it. It's on my radar as our region is much more active in autocrossing than they are in their track program - no surprise given that the nearest tracks are now 150-200 miles away and it's not that easy to get enough people together to cover the cost.

I'll be missing the local autocrosses for the rest of the year as I'll be out of town, but I'll see if I might be able to get to one down in Sacramento.

Also, make sure you have forgiving tires.

Not sure if the Hankook RS3s are considered forgiving - I find them controllable if I get into another one of my impromptu Formula Drift performances but I must say I did prefer the Rivals I was running on the MR2. That said, I've not been able to establish the right tire pressure for them, although I feel like I'm getting closer.

One issue with the RX8 that I've encountered (and I don't appear to be the only person to run into that) is that the rear end tends to get pretty loose when the tires heat up. Most of the cars I've driven in the past tend to go into a four wheel drift first, this thing seems to either stick with all four tires or go proper sideways. Pretty easy to catch, though.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
8/28/16 9:48 p.m.
Flight Service wrote: Just floor it into turn one and yank the E-Brake and yell Yee Haw!!!!

Don't I have to grow a mullet and drive a mid-80s Camstang for that?

mattm
mattm GRM+ Memberand Reader
8/28/16 9:55 p.m.
BoxheadTim wrote: [Yes, I know that GRM did an article about that a few months ago. I'll be digging that out in a sec] Just back from the track and, well, there is no way to sugar coat it. I'm slow, and I know my place (at the back of the grid ). While I am getting faster (my average lap times seem to be falling 1-2s/event), I feel I have a long ways to go - at this point a well driven NA Miata on street tires is about 1/2s faster per lap around Thunderhill West and the ones running slicks are 3-4 seconds faster per lap than me in my RX8. I'm 95% it's not the car - when my instructor drove the RX around Laguna Seca a couple of events back, he was running a good 5-6s faster per lap than I was and I doubt he ran it at more than 7-8/10. He also commented that he thought the setup was pretty much spot on for a dual use street/track car. He was/is more of an FWD guy (races a Civic in SCCA Pro racing) but it matches my gut feel that the car is fine and very responsive unless I manage to overwhelm the rear tires. One that does work for me is the intentional "go slower to go faster" routine - that's usually the way for me to get the best laptime, if I try to push harder it usually has the opposite effect. Couple of other things I noticed: * Confidence is key, and I find building confidence in my own abilities extremely hard. Some of this is psychological (I'm good a projecting confidence, but the monkey mind disagrees), some of it is also getting used to the car. * I've been pretty stressed and tired recently and that inhibits my ability to get into "The Zone". Typical example was that during one lap yesterday I suddenly forgot how to cat (well, how to heel/toe - honestly, couldn't remember the physical movement) and nearly went full agricultural. * I also seem to be much better at helping other people build the speed and confidence when I instruct. As I don't get to attend that many events I find it hard to build the experience that seems to help me build speed, I am wondering what people's preferred little routines are to make sure that every lap counts towards their driver development?

The spot on setup comment is somewhat of a red flag to me. Instructors are loathe to offend the driver or to disparage the car in most cases. At 7 or 8/10ths you really can't evaluate the setup at all and thus the comments are always positive. "Hey this isn't as E36 M3ty as the last car I drove!" I never drive the students car and instructors should not drive your car unless they are trying to discover a real issue. Instructors are there to instruct, not have a good time in your car. Almost no good can come from that situation and if your are fishing for setup compliments stop doing that as it isn't helping you go faster. At 7 or 8/10ths you cannot evaluate the setup.

Your need to get a traqmate or equivalent and find out where you are losing time. The answer here is simple, there are few problems that cannot be solved with more throttle. This seems flippant I know, but it is true. Be fully on the throttle, transition earlier to the throttle and brake less. The lap times will come down. The important thing to remember is to make the most of your own track time. Make notes, take video, use a gps lap timer and study! You will get faster.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
8/28/16 10:20 p.m.
mattm wrote: The spot on setup comment is somewhat of a red flag to me. Instructors are loathe to offend the driver or to disparage the car in most cases. At 7 or 8/10ths you really can't evaluate the setup at all and thus the comments are always positive. "Hey this isn't as E36 M3ty as the last car I drove!" I never drive the students car and instructors should not drive your car unless they are trying to discover a real issue. Instructors are there to instruct, not have a good time in your car. Almost no good can come from that situation and if your are fishing for setup compliments stop doing that as it isn't helping you go faster. At 7 or 8/10ths you cannot evaluate the setup.

Interesting point, didn't think about it like that. I certainly wasn't fishing for compliments about the setup, just an honest opinion and if anything, pointers if there was anything that needed improving. But I see what you're saying and it makes a lot of sense. Sometimes it's not that easy to convey the "dude, I'm paying you to give me the bad news, not to be a yes man" vibe and if I were in the instructor's position I'd probably be complimentary non-commital as well.

BTW, the 7/8-10ths comment was mine based on the lap times and general feel of the car, if he was driving the car at 10/10 then honestly, I need another, faster car. I actually don't have much in the way of comparison - I'm the only one at our local SCCA region who tracks an RX8, so I tend to keep an eye on the Miatas to get any sense of where I could be if I were a better driver.

mattm wrote: Your need to get a traqmate or equivalent and find out where you are losing time. The answer here is simple, there are few problems that cannot be solved with more throttle. This seems flippant I know, but it is true.

I know it's not flippant, and I learned that (again) from the instructor I had earlier in the year. My previous instructors were more of the "you either have to be on the brake or on the throttle" and over the years that seemed to breed the habit of getting on the throttle a little too early and a little too hard. That led directly to an oh E36 M3 moment going sideways in turn 10 at Laguna Seca...

mattm wrote: Be fully on the throttle, transition earlier to the throttle and brake less. The lap times will come down. The important thing to remember is to make the most of your own track time. Make notes, take video, use a gps lap timer and study! You will get faster.

Well, that sounds like I'm at least doing the right things with running a data logger with video, comparing the data between laps to look for inconsistencies and all that. One thing I can't gauge is if I'm just impatient with myself and need to give it time (and run more events per year) or if I'm missing something in my "driver improvement" program for myself.

Tom1200
Tom1200 Reader
8/29/16 1:00 a.m.

Tim several thoughts (warning this will be verbose):

First if I'd have to pick one thing you may be doing as a driver that is causing an issue it'd be this; I nag nag nag about how you transition from trailing off the brakes to picking up the throttle. I notice many (95%) drivers including fellow instructors do not comprehend how you take up the driveline slack has a huge effect on the middle 1/3 of a corner. If you don't gently preload the throttle what happens is you'll still make the apex but your exit varies 1-3 feet lap to lap. If you don't do this the suspension is still settling when it should already have done so. Remember the throttle controls the ride height of the front end, that split second of preloading the throttle before rolling it on is worth 1-2 tenths on every corner as well as making lap times more consistent.

Second, this is going to go counter to the crew, for your next session turn off the lap timer, the camera and all telemetry stuff. Go back to basics, hit all your marks, don't charge corner entrances and focus on soft hands and feet. When you are stringing together good laps then turn on the telemetry. Telemetry is great but unless you have a super sophisticated system it's not going to tell you the front end unsettled 64ft into turn 3 because you picked up the throttle .004 seconds quicker than before.

I've had students with basic systems and I have used it to reinforce something I'm telling them. I'll point out something they did with the brakes and show them how that translated into under steer 150ft later or a particuler line that netted a better result. Personally I use telemetry to see what effect damper changes have or gearing or effects of trying an unorthodox line. When your head has become unplugged it won't do a thing for you. One of the reasons I instruct is from time to time I'll do something and instantly think "hey I tell students not to do that" and this saves me a lot of time. Rather than pounding around 3 laps in a row doing something silly it is instantly noted.

Yes sleep is a good thing, but if you mange 6 hours worth you should be good. Naturally 8 would be better. Note I'm the ADD poster kid to the point of taking medication for it and I've done events on 5 or 6 hours of sleep. The key is to not overthinking it.

I started out road racing bikes first and when you get it wrong the ground comes up and smacks you upside the helmet to let you know your not with the program. So my attitude can be a bit diiferent.

I'm also a fan of visualization as well, for bikes we had Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist which is all about visualization. In the next few days think about exactly where things were off and exactly what you did 100 to 150ft before that. I think the comment about heating the rear tires is key.

Finally well I also think coaching is also a great thing. The one thing I have found with pro coaches is depending on what they drive it could have a downside. I had this discussion with a former Daytona 24hr winner, because they drive cars with slicks and downforce the things they're showing guys in street cars with relatively soft suspensions may do more harm than good. A few years ago some top flight open wheel guys ran at my local track for a new model launch of a top sports car and most of them made comments to the effect of "these things don't turn so well"

Again go back to basics and focus on doing things correctly rather than where your lap times are or losing time. You're just trying to hard.

Of course there is the possibility you're a hopeless hack like the rest of us.

My .02 feel free to ignore it completely (warning amateur driver on Internet).

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
8/29/16 6:12 a.m.

My biggest improvement as a driver came from adding smoothness.

2 things helped me add smoothness....

1) carefully letting off the brake instead of jumping off.

2) using my right hand to turn right and left hand to turn left. You use smaller muscle groups this way. It will let you feel what the front end is doing.

And always look ahead. It helps with smoothness.

Klayfish
Klayfish UberDork
8/29/16 6:18 a.m.

Tim,
I certainly feel your pain. I'm one of the slower drivers on my LeMons team. I'm proud that I drive extremely cleanly and don't get caught in any red mist, I drive very even keeled. But while my lap times are respectable, they're several seconds per lap off what our faster drivers can run. Part of it for me is simple driving technique. I don't know how to heel toe...not even a little bit. Nor do I left foot brake. I can do it (left foot brake) on the street, but haven't transitioned it to the race track. Those things cost me a lot of time, I know that.

How to get better, I think, partly has to do with how you learn. For me, I learn SO much more when I'm riding with an instructor and I'm the passenger. That way I can focus purely on what the instructor is doing...the line they're taking, when they are on/off the gas/brake, etc... I find that when I have been the driver and had an instructor as a passenger, I have a much harder time focusing on my driving, because I'm trying so hard to listen to the instructions. I wind up looking like a total moron. I don't really like doing it that way, I'd rather be the passenger and watch. The ideal situation for me to learn is to have an instructor driving at about 6 or 7/10ths. I also learn a lot by following a car/driver that I know is really fast. In LeMons, when a car that I know well passes me, and it's someone driving that I trust, I'll try to follow in their tire tracks as long as I can. I've picked up so many things that way. It's also when I tend to turn my fastest laps. I actually run slower when I'm running by myself.

I'll echo the sentiments just posted about looking ahead. That's one thing I've learned to do much, much better since I started. Looking as far ahead as possible really helps me set corners up and just have a smoother lap, not to mention dealing with traffic.

I also repeatedly tell myself "Friends don't let friends early apex" as I approach every corner.

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
8/29/16 6:29 a.m.
BoxheadTim wrote:
Flight Service wrote: Just floor it into turn one and yank the E-Brake and yell Yee Haw!!!!
Don't I have to grow a mullet and drive a mid-80s Camstang for that?

First the e-brake and yee haw, then the next morning you will have grown a mullet and the RX-8 will have become a Camstang.

imgon
imgon Reader
8/29/16 7:17 a.m.

I feel like I have a similar situation as you, I run an RX7 and am a mid pack finisher in my class. I have very few opportunities to have a similar car to compare/question the owner (although most of the Miatas I run with are very similar handling) and I also run inconsistent times. I only make it to a few events a year and have some confidence issues in both myself and the car. I believe my biggest problem is consistent brake modulation. I can hit my turn in points and apexes well but I don't feel like I use the same braking force at any given corner. I find that along with proper rest, I do best at tracks that I enjoy and have a good "flow". On technical tracks I don't seem to do as well especially when I don't go very often. I usually blame my desire to survive as a big restriction as to how far I am willing to push it. I do feel safe in my car but I still have no desire to see how well my safety systems work if I plow into a wall because I came in too hot into a corner. I have been doing TT's for almost ten years and have definitely improved over the years but seem to have plateaued. I think if I get off to a good start at an event, it boosts my confidence and do better. This applies to the equipment and the driver. I run Hoosier SM7's and it amazes me the difference between a set that is nearly done and my good set (I have one set just for the actual TT), I can sometimes pick up a second or more when switching to the good tires. One of my favorite tracks is Watkins Glen which is a fast track and has a couple of spots that for years I struggled with until we were able to do a track walk and see what the road surface was really like. One corner in particular has a lot more camber than it appears to have at speed. After that I felt better about pushing a little harder. I try to remind myself that I started doing this to have fun in my car and not to turn it into a career. I seem to do better on the days when I just go out and have fun and don't focus on that fast lap. Just go with the flow and the fast lap comes to you. That being said most of us become pretty competitive once we get behind the wheel. So I think you should ask your self a few questions. Am I having fun and being safe? How far am I willing to push my limits for a $5 trophy? Do I have to win to make it fun? Is there any equipment I can improve to make the car more consistent or confidence inspiring? Again, am I have FUN? Go have a good weekend with your friends and if your lap times are better then bonus!

dean1484
dean1484 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/29/16 7:49 a.m.

The biggest thing I learned from M instructors over the years is smooth. Every one I have ridden with we did not feel like we were driving fast and yet we were. I started backing it down to nine tenths and got use to that and then slowly worked back to just under the limit.

As others have said rest is key. You are not doing your self or students any favors being tired.

This may sound weird but I don't really think about the corner I am in. I am always thinking further down the track. It is kind of like an auto pilot. I have already driven the corner in my mind be for I get there so I don't have to think about it. I am not sure if that makes sense but it is the only way I can describe my thought process.

DWNSHFT
DWNSHFT HalfDork
8/29/16 8:22 a.m.
DWNSHFT wrote:
Also, make sure you have forgiving tires.
BoxheadTim wrote:
Not sure if the Hankook RS3s are considered forgiving - I find them controllable if I get into another one of my impromptu Formula Drift performances but I must say I did prefer the Rivals I was running on the MR2. That said, I've not been able to establish the right tire pressure for them, although I feel like I'm getting closer. One issue with the RX8 that I've encountered (and I don't appear to be the only person to run into that) is that the rear end tends to get pretty loose when the tires heat up. Most of the cars I've driven in the past tend to go into a four wheel drift first, this thing seems to either stick with all four tires or go proper sideways. Pretty easy to catch, though.

In general, the faster the tire, the less forgiving it is. They [forgiving tires] also have more laps before they heat-cycle out. Running on cycled-out tires is the one thing that ever shook my confidence. Getting new tires felt like putting on Superman's cape.

[edited for clarity and to correct quotes]

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
8/29/16 9:49 a.m.
Tom1200 wrote: Of course there is the possibility you're a hopeless hack like the rest of us.

Oi, I resemble that remark . And yes, I have no delusions of grandeur and am trying to do this as a hobby, but it's also fun if I end up with a trophy at the end of the year. Which I might well do, given that you can't get points for not showing up and at least I tend to show up for every event. Plus, even though I'm slow I'm usually the fastest in my class unless someone competent shows up.

Re the hopeless hack, that point was driven home when another club member showed up on Saturday with his freshly redone 914/6 that happens to run in the same class. He's been racing a little longer than I've been on the track, probably about as long as I've been alive. First session, his best laptime is over 5s faster than mine. Second session, I do my "smooth is fast" and "go slower to go faster routines", beat my own best laptime (and at that point, track record for the class which I had set in at the previous event) by close to a second and wouldntchaknowit, he's again beat me by over five seconds.

Then I find out from our chief instructor that said driver doesn't want to push his car because he's crashed the previous incarnation badly enough that he needed a new tub, so he's taking it easy.

That'd be me suitably humbled.

Thanks for all your feedback, it's all appreciated and gives me more pointers what to do.

docwyte
docwyte Dork
8/29/16 9:58 a.m.

The easiest thing to do here is that when you go to the track, pick out 2-3 corners. Choose the slow speed corners that have plenty of run off first.

Those are the corners that you're really going to push the car in. Really push the car, less braking, faster corner entry speed, get the car sliding through those corners. Work up your confidence to control the car sliding through those corners.

Got those corners down? Ok, now pick 2-3 medium speed corners and do the same thing. Now pick 2-3 high speed corners and do the same thing.

Now put it all together.

Entry speed makes a huge difference on your lap time. Remember you're going to be scrubbing speed just being in the corner without touching the brakes etc...

Tyler H
Tyler H GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
8/29/16 1:43 p.m.

Get on with a Lemons or Chump team. Get a data recorder (AIM, etc) and video, and overlay your data with a other driver in the same car -- you'll be able to see (video and data) your braking points, transition from brake to throttle, and line through the turn, as well as the delta in time gained. That + seat time is what you need...you'll get a lot of seat time endurance racing. You'll also get to take a lot of experimental lines through corners, dodging other cars and being passed.

After all that, evaluate your goals and capabilities.

racerdave600
racerdave600 SuperDork
8/29/16 3:55 p.m.

I was very fortunate in that two of my good friends were also skip barber instructors. Having proper instruction is by far the best way to shave off time. I also did one 15 minute session with another Skip instructor and he transformed how I braked. That more than anything started shaving seconds off my time. Good instruction if far better than anything else you can do.

Tom1200
Tom1200 Reader
8/30/16 12:07 a.m.

Tim there is one thing I wanted to ask since this situation sounds familiar. I'm a steer with the pedals driver, read trail brake & throttle steer as this is key to going fast on bikes, especially the trail brake part.

A few years back a long time friend and fellow instructor asked me to ride along as he said he was driving fine but he was just slow. It only took about 4 corners to figure out what was going on. While his lines were perfect he was smooth and what he was doing was common technique; the majority of his braking was done in a straight line, he'd get the car to take a set but once the steering wheel was turned about 10-15 degrees, he would apply steady throttle and then do,the classic unwind and increase the throttle. This was all done very smoothly but the problem with this is you have to over slow the car by 1-2 mph or more to make it work.

Conversely when I drove him round in his spec Miata it was a revelation; in the first heavy braking zone I gave him a bit of a scare, while I didn't really brake a whole lot deeper, I used way less brake pedal pressure and carried that into the first third of the corner (classic trail braking) and then balance it on the throttle for the middle third, and because the car is rotating ever so slightly I was able to get on the throttle earlier for last third.

What really surprised my friend was the resulting 3-5 mph more corner speed and he said he thought I was going to spin the car for sure. I explained whereas he was getting maximum grip out of the fronts under braking and then maximum lateral grip and possibly the rears on exit he was only getting the most out of two or three tires at a time. By contrast I was getting the most out of all four tires at once. I further explained that be using that ever slight pedal pressure on turn in, not only does it rotate the car but it also means I'm winding on less steering the net result of which means I'm unwinding the wheel even sooner freeing up more power on exit. I'm also out braking people not by roaring past and slamming them on but by sheer virtue of using less brake force over a set length of track. This is why I'm routinely passing people around the outside of medium and high speed corners.

Here is the tough part for most people; at turn 1 of my home track if you use 5lbs of pedal pressure, as you're turning in you can enter the corner at 80 mph and only scrub down to 72-73 mph mid corner. If per chance you chicken out as you're turning in and using 20lbs of pedal pressure it will unsettle the car and you'll loop it.........forever convincing yourself you cannot enter the corner faster. It takes a good bit of practice to get to the point of finding the sweet spot of the absolute minimum amount of pedal pressure to get it right.

When I instruct I use a corner that only requires a slight slow down so that way the only braking required is a perfect example of trail braking. I also do not teach the do all your braking in a straight line. Once someone starts to get up to speed you have to unlearn this. Yes it is though to learn to rotate the car by trailing the brakes but you progress a lot faster if you do.

The finally piece that I rarely show anyone who isn't very experienced is preloading the throttle, to squat the back end of the car while threshold braking to settle it as you approach the turn in point. I do this in sedans while making the heel and downshift as well as with left foot braking in single seaters.

Now if you already steering with the pedals, then ignore the novel above.

Tom

chuckles
chuckles HalfDork
8/30/16 7:54 p.m.

Lots of good advice here. As an average, enthusiast, club racer who did his first 14 years road racing with bikes as a youngster (quit age 39) and now just do track days on four wheels, I want to confess that I did not/do not learn tracks quickly. The pro level guys know just where they are on the track in one session. Everybody can eventually reach an experience level where what you see at the moment tells you exactly what the race track does next and you feel you know what you are going to do next.

That's where you can start changing your line, if you need to, with confidence. That's where you get to relax into smoothness and observe more, and learn more rapidly. I'm feel almost there with Hallett and thought I was with the old Texas World and getting there at a couple others. That seat time is expensive, and not just in $.

It takes me a long time to really learn a track. There's an old story about Freddie Spencer breaking the bike lap record at one of the short British circuits, maybe Brands Hatch, on the eighth lap of his first practice. This is athletic genius, and the difference referred to in the "aliens" thread.

I think the key to learning a track is relaxation. There is tons of information there for you. You can't absorb it while you're tense. Remember to breathe.

Robbie
Robbie GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
8/30/16 9:29 p.m.

Run a lemons or chump event.

No replacement for seat time and experimentation.

It should also make you feel like your rx8 is a God among cars after you get out of a lemons car... free confidence.

You'll need to log in to post.

Our Preferred Partners
qRKECAF6RMDMcs54UDJRjvDFnJC1CPJhxHntDW2SyBLI7L51EYEoCtgUpaoe8IZd