Learn me: Modern tires on old Wire Wheels

So, I found a well-priced disc brake conversion (actually, whole front cut) for the Riggamort last week and got it home. I am trying to figure out what kind of tire to run on it, and if any special work is needed to be able to mount them.

I saw on an MG forum that some users recommended finding/using a tube, and others mentioned that some rim manufacturers seal the spokes with Silicon. I may be able to horse-trade for non wire-wheel hubs, but for now want to use these to get the car driving/stopping. 

13" tires are cheap, which is great, I just want to know what I should be doing/considering before trying to find a shop that will change tires on a 13" wire wheel, haha.

Thanks!

"some rim manufacturers seal the spokes with Silicon"

I'd avoid any so-called rim manufacturer that does that like the plaque.

We put modern tires on wire wheels all the time.

Run tubes, use talcum powder on the tubes and the tires so they don't stick.

Don't bother with flaps or rims strips, two or three layers of duct tape do a better job.

Air it up to seat the beads, leave the stem nut loose, let all the air out. Air it up again, let all the air out. Air it up again, tighten the stem nut and you're good to go.

Airing it up a couple times lets the tube relax and gets all the wrinkles out. Wrinkles are bad juju.

Modern tire machines clamp to the rim and would be able to do the job. We always used tubes with wire wheels back in the day and also on the dirt track race car with steel wheels. Care must be taken when installing the tubes so they are not twisted and do not get pinched between the tire and the wheel. 

This is a brand new, in the box set of Dayton British style wire wheels for tubeless use. You can see they simply fill in the spoke nipple area with silicone or a black rtv.  It seems slightly more professional than duct tape but whatever works, works.

Before you make any plans take a screwdriver and tap on each spoke. They should ring a bit. The ones that don't are broken. Broken spokes are bad

Thanks for the input guys. Sounds like it'll just mean finding a place that understands these/has worked with them so that the process gets done right. I'm thinking some Uniroyal Tiger Paws (reppin' Detroit), or some of the "classic look" tires would be a good fit.

What's the rim width? 

There are a few options. I have federal 595 on mine, but the nankang ar1 might come narrow enough...  Maybe..  depending...

I have 13x6 and I know they would work on 13x5. (185's I think and I think I saw the nankangs in that width)

Please don't run this at the Challenge with wire wheels.  Just say no.

Examine the splines carefully on the wheels and the hubs. The spline profile needs to have perfect symetry. If not they will fail when you least expect it, usually under braking. The wheel then departs. Stampie is 100% correct.

Stampie (FS) said:

Please don't run this at the Challenge with wire wheels.  Just say no.

I've run splined wheels for many decades under a far lot more stress than the challenge. With a lot more power and speed than this will create.  
      Unless you've done so yourself are you really in a position to judge? Or are you listening to someone who heard from someone?  
   Yes I know spokes can break. I've had it happen to me. Two previously good spokes on my MGTD broke during a race.  I found out about it in my post race checking. 
   The worst I ever saw was a Austin Healey 3000 at Elkhart  lake  broke 15 of the 60 but he admitted he had never previously checked them. He finished the race by the way. 

Worn  splines on either the wheels or hubs may  or may not  need replacing. New splines have a slight flat spot on the top of them. As the splines wear ( due to lack of lubrication ) they eventually wear the splines to a point.  But not completely. That is some part of the spline will not be engaged.  The unworn part is your guide.   Properly snugged down you can use them right up to the point the wear on the very tip of the spline starts  to drop below the unused portion. 

Old wheels are usually narrow, so stick with tires that fit the rim width range of your wheels.

Trent said:

This is a brand new, in the box set of Dayton British style wire wheels for tubeless use. You can see they simply fill in the spoke nipple area with silicone or a black rtv.  It seems slightly more professional than duct tape but whatever works, works.

 

Before you make any plans take a screwdriver and tap on each spoke. They should ring a bit. The ones that don't are broken. Broken spokes are bad

 

The duct tape isn't to seal the wheel air-tight, it is to prevent the spoke nipples from chewing on the inner tube.

FMB42 said:

"some rim manufacturers seal the spokes with Silicon"

I'd avoid any so-called rim manufacturer that does that like the plaque.

How do you think multi-piece wheels are sealed? SOP for things like BBS RS.

You can run tubeless on some modern wheels like Daytons.  I run 15" x 6" tubeless on my rebodied MGA and have had zero leakage.

The caution about spline condition is important. I've seen people spend a bunch of loot on new wheels and then mounted them on the old worn splines. They were garbage a year later - money thrown away.  If you aren't experienced enough to assess condition yourself, have someone that is do it for you.  New hubs or adaptors (as the case may be) will preserve whatever wheels you have on there.

And here's a good article from Classic Motorsports that covers spline condition:

https://classicmotorsports.com/articles/adding-wire-wheels-your-british-classic/

Stampie (FS) said:

Please don't run this at the Challenge with wire wheels.  Just say no.

Please DO run this at the Challenge with wire wheels! Yes!

The same debate happens on 80's motorcycle wheels like Honda Comstars, tubes vs. tubeless. From what I can tell, you can do it either way as long as the spokes are sealed (no tube) or the tube is protected from the spokes with rim tape (with tube). 

z31maniac said:

FMB42 said:

"some rim manufacturers seal the spokes with Silicon"

I'd avoid any so-called rim manufacturer that does that like the plaque.

How do you think multi-piece wheels are sealed? SOP for things like BBS RS.

My F500 is tubeless with the wheel haves bolted together and sealed with silicon.  I assemble the rim on the tire, give the silicon overnight to cure, then air up/seat the bead. Common practice with these. 

FWIW, within reason, wire wheels can take side forces (i.e. cornering)  a bit better than steel rims can, because they have more inherent give/flex to them.  This does not, BTW, make them stronger in a twisting direction under hard acceleration, which is why 427 Cobras had alloy rather than steel wheels.  

Quite a few people with old British cars and wire wheel hubs convert to alloy wheels, but the knock on alloys are heavier because they use a solid machined centre rather than the sheet metal (and light weight) wire wheel centre.   Guess unsprung weight doesn't matter as much for the street but it rubs old racers the wrong way.

Got the cut out of the car and up on sawhorses today. Passenger wheel came off easily, driver's wheel seems to be a little stuck on. I have hit it with some carb cleaner to try and blow out any gunk (some success) since I don't have PB blaster here right now. I *think* the splines I can see from the removed wheel look pretty good, aside from the unknown reason for the hole through them (grease?)

And the stuck wheel.

These are also 4" wide, so not much meat for tires. The one guy selling "regular" hubs locally wants $150, which is hard to stomach

That hole is so you can install the cotter pin in the wheel bearing nut deep in that splined hub

$175 for four hubs is a good deal. But  you'd also need a new rear axle housing and axle shafts - the wire wheel rear end is narrower and you can't just bolt steel wheel stuff onto it. The usual way to do it is to swap the whole rear end.  Front wheel conversion is a lot simpler - just the hubs are needed.

And yes, as far as I can tell, your wheels and hubs look pretty good, so as long as the spokes are tight you can use them as is.

In reply to wspohn :

Rear end is from a Chevy truck so no concerns there, is $150 just for the 2 front hubs. On this build, that is a lot of  the remaining budget.

In reply to classicJackets (FS) :

Those look suitable. I'd use them.  Clean them up and use copper anti sieze on both the spline in the wheel and spline in the hub.  I also use anti seize on the threads of the knock off and hubs but be careful not to anti seize the tightening cone on either. 

I'd heard that dynamic wheel balancing equipment doesn't handle wire wheels well, and that a bubble balance is preferred. It has never been clear to me why that would be. I didn't see that mentioned above... Is it true?

In reply to Mike (Forum Supporter) :

Perhaps the dynamic balancer tech had difficulty finding a centering cone and tightening cone that would work with the wire wheel. The wheel needs to be tight enough so it won't spin and come loose when spinning it.