Learn me Porsche 924s

Figures, it's that damn Slick Dizzy's thread.

jk, he likes Lotus M100s so I know it wasn't him.

Around here there's not a huge price difference in the NA and Turbo's in average shape. The absolute best versions are an exception where the prices vary drastically. Either of those command big money over the run into the ground variety you see most often on craigslist.

I purchased my 951 for $3,500 and then spent a few thousand more getting it in good shape. It had great original paint and good interior, and horrible maintenance. It needed almost everything mechanically; all belts and hoses, brakes, clutch, intercooler, a few seals, shocks and struts, etc.

My 944 I purchased for $1,000 also with good paint, interior and poor maintenance. In the end I had about the same money in both cars. It was a one owner car that was simply parked and forgotten when the PO aquired a new Boxster. It needed everything the 951 needed, plus a 2nd gear syncro in the transaxle.

Had I held out for a good car with up to date maintenance, on either version, I would have been money ahead, even doing a lot of the work myself. Some of the parts were dirt cheap, some horribly expensive, most all them a PITA to install. These are definitely of the "buy the best you can afford" variety, unless you love pain, misery, and a giant sucking sound coming from your wallet! Granted, when you're behind the wheel the sucking sound isn't so bad, but sitting in the garage with the transaxle on the floor, the sucking sound is so great that a parallel universe opens up letting you see what life would have been like if you simply had bought a Miata instead!

Woot! It works now! Must have been the posts here Tom.

Unless you want a project car to play with swaps and other mods, the 924 NA may not be for many folks.

Since the 924 2.0L shares the same bellhousing pattern as the Audi 5-cylinders, swapping in an Audi turbo 5-pot or another Audi motor (v6/v8) is an option and has been done in Europe a few times now. The DOHC 5-cylinder motors fit better as the SOHC heads need a custom intake to clear the strut tower.

The 2.0L non-turbo cars are pretty slow and the 2.0 doesn't respond well to bolt-on mods unless you spend a lot of time re-working the cylinder head or just boost the heck out of it. Porsche hamstrung the heads on the 924 to keep it slower than the base 911 of the time (1976)

The 2.0L motors do respond well to boost as they are low in compression ratio in the US versions and the bottom ends are pretty stout. A supercharger has been done a few times and BAE used to sell a turbocharger kit. Of course the factory 924 Turbo is a better all around car, but expect to spend a bunch of time repairing vacuum lines and grounds before it runs right (old Euro-car with CIS, what do you expect?).

At about 200-220hp the stock 924 NA clutch starts to slip. A hybrid clutch has been made before using a Bronco 2.9L disc with a 924 NA center and redrilling the flywheel to accept a more common pressure plate. The 924 NA clutch splines are not exactly common, so it is preferential to upgrade to a 924 turbo or 944 torque tube and transaxle. That opens up clutch choices to Chrysler discs.

The 924 NA has solid rotor fronts and rear drums for brakes and a 4x108mm bolt pattern taken from early Audi's. The rear drums do not automatically adjust, so a spongy pedal is usually maladjusted rear brakes. Luckily 4x108 roughly equals 4x4.25", the same pattern as a 4-bolt Mustang and some Euro-Fords (1st Gen Escort, etc) One might be able to adapt a rear disc conversion for a super beetle, since the trailing arms are very similar. Front vented discs might be available from an early Audi and front calipers can be upgraded to use Passat calipers with larger pistons. Volvo 244 2-piston calipers can also be installed with a switch to 944 uprights.

A sometimes cheaper swap is to bolt on 924 turbo or 944 trailing arms and front brakes. This changes the pattern to 5x130, which is shared with other Porsche's. Unfortunately, Porsche wheels (even factory take offs) are not usually cheap.

CIP makes off-road torsion bars for the Super Beetle that fit the 924 and 944 torsion bar carrier. These bars are exceptionally cheap, compared to the ones from the typical 944 vendors and really help to stiffen the rear of the cars. If you are looking at 924's, try to find one with the rear sway bar mounts, saves you having to add them later. Early 944's and 924's shared front sway bar and strut mounts, so upgrades there aren't hard to come by thanks to Spec-944, etc.

Quaiffe makes a faster ratio steering gear for the 924's flipped Euro-rabbit steering rack. It isn't a perfect bolt-in, but it can help quicken the ratio quite a bit. A GM EPAS steering column from a Cavalier has been adapted to the 924 column to get a cheap power steering upgrade and with the aftermarket controlled used on it, the feel isn't lost as you can dial in the amount of assist wanted. Should work on 944's as well.

For me, the reasons to go with a 924 over a 944 are simple: The 924 is the NA Miata of the water-cooled, front engine Porsche world. A simple, raw sports coupe. Great steering feel, excellent chassis, a low powered motor that you can rev a bit and feel like you're going a million when you're just keeping up with traffic, etc. Simple body without all of the goo-gah's of the later versions. With some basic mods, it can be a pretty fun little car, but it will be hard to make it faster than a 944 without pressurizing the intake. Friends with 924 Turbos and 924's with other pressurized solutions like to chase down 944 NA's and various 911's, especially since the chassis is so much easier to drive near the limit.

In reply to turboswede:

Long time Porsche 924 fan here, I've had 3 Porsche 924's and a 1987 924'S....I'm interested in tinkering with my 77.5 Porsche 924 but I can't seem to find anyone with high-performance parts, any ideas ?

I did see a supercharged 77.5 924 on youtube looks like a great way to go forward !Thanks for any help you can provide. Here is the link with the Eaton supercharger; http://youtu.be/WdOH8BvjBbY

No one makes much anymore. The engines just don't respond that well to mods.

You have to roll your own.

Garage.ideola.com and EBS racing are the only ones that deal with the engines.

The rest is just picking the right combination of 944/Audi/VW parts to bring out the best the chassis has to offer.

The Row52 website is showing a pretty decent 1977 924 just got placed at the Tacoma picknpull. http://row52.com/Vehicle/Index/9247204175

Those early manual mirrors are a desired item for racers who want to ditch the heavy power mirrors.

I also think the early cars had the higher compression motor (125hp) so the bottom end might be worthwhile for someone hopping up a 2.0L equipped car.

924guy wrote: In reply to M030: my info comes directly from a factory mechanic who worked in Germany, for Porsche in the late 70's, whom i met at a pca event in the mid 90's... if it is indeed a myth, it started in Stuttgart, so its a really good one!

Given Porsche's history of fiddling with other cars to do the same (think 914/6), this myth has legs IMHO.

The engine was originally designed by Mercedes for Audi and shares a bellhousing pattern with the 5-cylinder motors (and some of the early V6/V8 motors)

The turbo head is very similar and doesn't flow any better on a flow bench compared to the NA head. The turbo head had a small dish added and the spark plugs moved to the other side of the engine. Overlaying the intake port cross sections between the two heads show that there isn't much difference between the two aside from the dish and the location of the mounting points for the intake and exhaust. They are both limited by the intake port shape, which requires a lot of cutting and shaping to repair, plus adding material to the bottom of the port to improve the flow into the valve area. Adding larger valves helps, but only to a point, just like adding stroke to the crank or increasing the bore of the cylinders.

Ultimately, the best swap is to use a DOHC 5-cylinder motor. The N/A's have about 170hp stock and the turbo motors are easily putting out quite a bit more than that.

The best source for up to date information on the 924 and 924 turbo is on the http://www.924board.org, much of the old "data" isn't worth much anymore since technology has moved forward quite a bit and so many people have modified the cars and engines that many of the pitfalls have been found and worked out.

turboswede wrote: I also think the early cars had the higher compression motor (125hp) so the bottom end might be worthwhile for someone hopping up a 2.0L equipped car.

The Euro-spec motor has 125hp, I don't think that one ever got exported to the US. I had one of those, it didn't feel as slow as everybody said and you could throw it around a little, too.

I still have an occasional hankering for a 924S.

BoxheadTim wrote:

turboswede wrote: I also think the early cars had the higher compression motor (125hp) so the bottom end might be worthwhile for someone hopping up a 2.0L equipped car.

The Euro-spec motor has 125hp, I don't think that one ever got exported to the US. I had one of those, it didn't feel as slow as everybody said and you could throw it around a little, too. I still have an occasional hankering for a 924S.

It did, the very first year, then they dropped the CR to use the crap gas here and to pass the tighter emissions. My 79 got the weak motor, while my buddy CorsePerVita got the 125hp motor. Jerk ;)

Where do you guys find all those cheap Porsche's. Around here, NA 944's start at 5k. To go under that, you need to step up to a model with a broken transmission, 180K (miles not kilometers) and no service records for 2.9K, or one with 80K, but no service record and the most hideous orange respray ever for 4K.

I think 944's and 924's have increased in prices since you guys bought yours.

I think Khal would be willing to sell his (Vancouver, BC):

http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=37074

You may have to promise to buy him alcohol and pay for gas :)

Going way back in this thread. The 87 924s has a lot more in common with the pre 85.5 944's. The 88's were virtually all post 85.5 944 stuff. This included the better NA motor from the post 85.5 944's. This is why 944 owners of that time were getting pissy as the 88 924s's were lighter and had better aero than the 944's and they got the 2.5NA motor that the 88 944 got so they were on paper anyway faster. The down side to them is that with out the fender flairs you are really limited to 225-50 16's and you will have to roll the fenders. Depending on the brand and size variance between them some in that size will still rub a little.

The best car would be to find a MO30 optioned 924s. Yes they made them. From what I understand only about 50 or so were made as special order cars primarily for track use. The next best thing is one with a sun roof delete (what I have) and you can make a MO30 clone.

From a maintenance stand point either a 87 or and 88 are ok. I like the stamped steel A arms of the 87's as it makes changing ball joints simple and cheap. If you are racing this is something to consider as lowering these cars seems to shorten the ball joint life.

If I was to do it again I would probably get an 88. I like the updated (post 85.5) interior much better and you get a better motor.

Modifications are all similar to what you can do to a 944 (not much in the HP department) However a good set of pads and shocks / struts and you will have a very competent track toy that is a blast to drive. The down site is that they are heavy primarily due to them being designed to withstand crashing at autobahn speeds.

Bottom line if you can get one at the rite price go for it. They are a nice car. I DD my car all year round with no complaints. This year I put 4 studded snow tires on it and it is about the best cars I have ever driven in the snow.

fanfoy wrote: Where do you guys find all those cheap Porsche's. Around here, NA 944's start at 5k. To go under that, you need to step up to a model with a broken transmission, 180K (miles not kilometers) and no service records for 2.9K, or one with 80K, but no service record and the most hideous orange respray ever for 4K. I think 944's and 924's have increased in prices since you guys bought yours.

I picked up a tired, but still useable 83 944 for 1500. Of course, a timing belt/waterpump job and a top end rebuild have upped that to about 2500, but still...

Was looking at a few GTV6s and one of the guys who was selling that car also was selling a 924S. Wondering about the parts availability on this car? Drove it and like the trans feel more..... has nice rotary dial looking wheels as well....

Thread seems to endorse this car so i'm just curious how hard parts are to find.

What sort of parts? Maintenance parts and consumables shouldn't be a problem at all (have a look at Pelican Parts for example).

924S is just a 944 with a narrower body. All of the parts are readily available.

damnit now i'm looking at 924/944s on CL

kanaric wrote: Was looking at a few GTV6s and one of the guys who was selling that car also was selling a 924S. Wondering about the parts availability on this car? Drove it and like the trans feel more..... has nice rotary dial looking wheels as well.... Thread seems to endorse this car so i'm just curious how hard parts are to find.

924s easy (it is a 944 really)

924 Harder but not that bad.

BTW, here's someone who has swapped the 944 turbo (951) parts into a narrow body 924S:

http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=36902

Should be an awesome sleeper (for a 924S)

Also, here's someone that is swapping an Audi AAN (DOHC 5-cylinder turbo motor, the basis for the Group B rally Audi's)

http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=37898

For some of the hard to find parts for the older, 2.0L Audi-based 924 cars (plus some of the parts work on the later 924S/944 cars as well) check out: http://garage.ideloa.com and http://www.924board.org and http://www.924.org

Here are some of Ideola's cars:

(941 aka 924 turbo with 944 body work): http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=32988

(924 D-prod replica): https://picasaweb.google.com/115880744409896466684/1978Porsche924DProdReplica

(931 ClubSport): http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=31912

(937 aka Carrera GTS): https://picasaweb.google.com/115880744409896466684/937

Looks like fun, right?

I've got this crazy idea about building a 3.2 liter version of the 968 Turbo RS engine (sleeved 3.0 liter bottom end + 2.7 liter 8v cylinder head + 951 turbo and piping) and sticking it in a 1976 924 sunroof delete car.

Maroon92 wrote: I've got this crazy idea about building a 3.2 liter version of the 968 Turbo RS engine (sleeved 3.0 liter bottom end + 2.7 liter 8v cylinder head + 951 turbo and piping) and sticking it in a 1976 924 sunroof delete car.

I think I'd go one step further and put the 16-valve head on there with the rare 16-valve turbo manifold.

Then again, for that much work I'd just put 2.3L AAN in the 924 and blow the Porsche motor out of the water with ALL THE BOOSTS!

Well I'll be ..... Just when I was bitching about the lack of cheap 924/944's, this comes along. It says it has a trashed interior, doesn't start because of ignition problems, and that it comes with 5-lug conversion parts included. All for 1.5K...

This has track car written all over it.