Knurled. said:In reply to ProDarwin :
Which chassis has more room for tire? Looks can be deceiving but it seems like the NC has more room for rubber.
Not sure. In STR, they will both comfortably wear a 17x9/255 set of shoes. S2000s get pretty big rubber on them in the higher classes, but I am guessing NC Miatas do as well.
ProDarwin said:Knurled. said:Having driven S2000s casually, I think the "no low end" is a psychological effect similar to the one rotaries suffer. It's not that they have no low end, it's that they have an incredible top end charge that makes the low end feel soft in comparison.
It is absolutely this.
This discussion resurfaces every few years here. There is a graph I supplied in a previous thread comparing S2000 (percieved as 'weak low end') to the 2.5RS motor (percieved as 'torquey'), and it is similar in power through all the low end stuff, then just obliterates it up top.
I was only comparing to my DD which is slightly heavier but makes the same peak HP. I'm at 100hp at 3000rpm. The following car on the dyno was a stock AP1 that put down 212whp.
I've had this conversation with my S2k friend. Some people perceive a car to be faster that is torquier with long gears(me) while other people find that shifting more with shorter gears make a car feel faster. In the end it comes down to preference. I'm sure that with gearing we're putting down similar torque to the ground.
MTechnically said:I had an 03' S2000 for 6 years and 60,000 miles, and it was my only car though all six Chicagoland winters I had it for. They are remarkably reliable performance cars. I only had to deal with the timing chain tensioner ($150 part and an hour or so of labor) and a soft top replacement outside of the usual maintenance. My car ate tons of oil. To the point of me having a compression and leak down test done, but everything came back in spec.
As someone else mentioned, to get one in the price range you are talking about, you will end up with a car with needs. Second gear syncros are a known weakness for the AP1's (99-03) and valve retainers can be an issue on cars that have had mechanical overrevs. In general a later car (AP2 - 04-09), it a bit more dynamically sorted and robust. The AP2 got traction control in 05 (VSC) and drive by wire throttle. They are a little more neutral handling and the additional torque from the F22 makes the car a little more tractable than the rev happy F20.
As for driving experience, it really depends on how you plan to use the car. Shifter is lovely and throttle response is immediate, but the lack of torque can be an issue if you're commuting. Steering feel is a little number than you might expect. If you take the rest of the internet's word for it the early cars will kill you with snap oversteer. Personally, I think it's a bit overblown and can be somewhat mitigated by a more progressive modern tire and alignment settings. It'll probably feel heavy if you've owned truly light cars, but I think the "heaviness" of the S2000 comes down to the lack of torque for normal driving situations. I found the car to be somewhat miserable with the top up. It really cut down the fun of the driving experience.
In my opinion it's a car dependant on context. If you're able to really ring the car out on a regular basis then it's quite good fun, if not you'd probably be happier with something else. Another issue with them is they are quite expensive to modify when it comes to extracting more performance. Simply put, don't bother with mods for naturally aspirated power.
If you want a real VTEC screamer look for a late AP1. You still get the 9k redline, but you get a real rear window and a slightly better interior. If you want more liveable car for daily duties look at an early AP2 (04-05).
I have been daily driving my my S2000 for 19.5 years and tracked it regularly throughout the early 2000's. What is posted above is an excellent summary of my take on the car after nearly 20 years.
Thumbs up, MTechnically!
I am now fortunate enough to be able to buy just about buy anything short of a true supercar, but as far as driver engagement during commute time, i.e. 35 to 75 mph,, I can't think of anything more fun that would be worth the extra cash.
Much to my wife's chagrin : )
Knurled. said:Steve_Jones said:Knurled. said:So that local one with all records and a hardtop
for $8k was priced really low?
Now I have retroactive regret.
Low enough to be a scam. Assume it was
If it was a scam, it was a very good one - had lots of pictures, paragraphs full of info, and IIRC it had 180k or 240k miles or something like that.
I’d still wager it was a "I just got transferred overseas" scam. An s2000 with 180k is still in the $10k range, and the hardtop is $3-$4k by itself. Currently there are 0 under $10k on cars.com nationwide. 0.
My 50 something year old coworker sold her ap1 for 6k. It had 140k on it and was dealer maintained. She dd it for years. Deals are out there.
I bought an '03 AP1 in '15, in spite of having driven them before! The engine does drive like a small car with a too-big turbo and lots of lag.
I've driven both the AP1 and AP2 versions. The AP2 is more stable/predictable/torquey, but the AP1 is more fun to drive at "OMG!" levels.
That said, I knew what I was getting into and wifey and I bought it almost exclusively for autocross fun. It's also a wonderful track day toy.
We also participated in the 2016 and 2017 SCCA "Targa Southeast" events, each including 6 events in 3 days (Autocross/DE/Track day/Track trial/Road Rally) We drove over 1500 miles in 4 days for both years.
The car is a blast in any context where you can drive it in anger, but it's not a great travel car for two 60+ year old autocrossers. I do shift work so I can sleep just about anywhere/anytime, but there's no way to get even an average frame person into a comfortable sleeping position in the passenger seat.
Having driven both an AP1 S2000 and a 2.5 RS, that chart is... quite interesting. I guess the truth can be misleading.
I mean, it's not horrible. What a great thing to say about a halo car, right? Honda themselves felt they needed to address it when dollars were on the line, while my opinion of the torque issue is worth maybe $0.02.
How are they with high miles...say 250K? Got a lead on one close to challenge money if a hardtop is worth 3-4k.
Vigo said:Having driven both an AP1 S2000 and a 2.5 RS, that chart is... quite interesting. I guess the truth can be misleading.
I mean, it's not horrible. What a great thing to say about a halo car, right? Honda themselves felt they needed to address it when dollars were on the line, while my opinion of the torque issue is worth maybe $0.02.
That chart does not account for gearing and weight. I should do a thrust chart as well just for kicks.
I've owned an AP2 and a 2.5RS, so the lines are probably even closer down low. My point was the 2.5RS may feel more torquey down low, and you can't really argue with 'feel'. But faster, it is not.
And I would agree that if the S2000 never came on VTEC and fell on its face at ~6500 or something, everyone would love it for a not fast sports car with great dynamics not unlike a Miata.
Similar to Knurled's example a 600cc sport bike doesn't feel like a rocket down low compared to up top, but even down low it is pretty much a rocket compared to 99% of 4 wheeled vehicles.
In reply to ProDarwin :
I crossed Loveland Pass (12k feet) with only the small cam, that was rough. I had to use 3rd gear at some point.
That chart does not account for gearing and weight. I should do a thrust chart as well just for kicks.
I've owned an AP2 and a 2.5RS, so the lines are probably even closer down low. My point was the 2.5RS may feel less torquey down low, and you can't really argue with 'feel'. But faster, it is not.
You're right, and i should have couched my reaction in that. I have mentioned many times here the time my buddy and i raced his corolla XRS vs his regal GS. The 1.8l corolla was in 2nd gear well below lift rpm (aka vtec etc) and still ran even with the supercharged v6 until it hit lift, then ran away from it. This in spite of the fact that the Regal GS would actually trap higher through the 1/4. So the butt dyno is weird and some things are counterintuitive for sure. Also, the first time i drove a FRSBRZ (2.0 ~2800 lb?) i was pleasantly surprised by the torque and didn't even notice the torque dip thing. Weird world is weird.
I owned an AP1 for a brief period (about a year) and used it for DD and weekend duty. At 6'2" I was very comfortable, much moreso that I would have thought. I definitely enjoyed owing and driving it, but I was always apprehensive about everybody stating they burn oil so in hindsight it led to me enjoying the car less than I should have.
I was able to sell it for what I paid a year prior, perhaps even a slight bit more, so I have no complaints (except that the sale facilitated a Trailblazer SS purchase, which I regret lol). If I were in the position to get another weekend toy I might give an AP2 a shot, as I love screaming Hondas but could probably appreicate the updates of an AP2.
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