Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't all these categories (UHP, etc) just made-up bins that Tire Rack assigns each tire to based on whatever hand-wavy thing they choose?
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't all these categories (UHP, etc) just made-up bins that Tire Rack assigns each tire to based on whatever hand-wavy thing they choose?
roninsoldier83 said:Andy Hollis said:roninsoldier83 said:I will second GTwannaB's motion: GRM editors, any chance you would consider a (~300ish TW) summer vs UHP all-season comparison? I would happily write one myself if someone wanted to donate a set of Continental ExtremeContact Sport 02's to the cause! You know, for science and whatnot.
This is a super-niche comparison.
Tires are a compromise. It's already a huge trade-off to have the versatility of a Max Performance Summer 300tw (ECS02 and PS4S/PSS5). Trading off even more performance to include cold/icey weather performance goes far beyond logical motorsports usage. Given that we are "Grassroots Motorsports", I see little value in this for a wide audience.
Super-niche. I agree. This is Grassroots Motorsports and I agree this test would not be in the context of motorsports. It probably wouldn't appeal to a huge audience (although it might surprise you- there are probably more people on the fence than you think- or at least more people that might read it just to see the real-world differences).
I've read several of your tire-related tests over the years and would consider you one of the world's foremost experts on explaining all things tire related. I don't blame you for not wanting to waste your time on such an oddball comparison... but for the record, if you ever get bored and change your mind, I would love to hear your thoughts!
I agree with this, I would love to see this kind of tire review!
Does the comparison have more relevance for budget conscious readers in northern states that need to use the same tires for both commuting and autocross?
These are locations where the season may start and end with temps between 30F and 50F, while mid summer can approach low-mid 90s?
I'm just thinking it's definitely a niche market for many states south of the Mason Dixon line, but could it be relevant to those north of it?
Just fyi.
Two links to short GRM reviews on UHP all season tires from last year..
Falken
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/falken-azenis-fk460-as-review/
Bridgestone
No Time said:Does the comparison have more relevance for budget conscious readers in northern states that need to use the same tires for both commuting and autocross?
These are locations where the season may start and end with temps between 30F and 50F, while mid summer can approach low-mid 90s?
I'm just thinking it's definitely a niche market for many states south of the Mason Dixon line, but could it be relevant to those north of it?
Conti ECSes still work when it's 30F. They just don't work if the precipitation is frozen, be it ice, snow, or slush.
I drove on mine after getting caught out in a snowstorm and they worked about as well as the new Riken all seasons that my car came with. That is to say, the nicest thing I can say is that I avoided crashing through diligent driving. But only because of that. The first time it snowed with the Rikens, it took me about 50 yards of ABS pounding anxiety to stop from 30mph. Immediately ordered proper winter tires.
Not relevant to the thread of course.
mfennell said:Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't all these categories (UHP, etc) just made-up bins that Tire Rack assigns each tire to based on whatever hand-wavy thing they choose?
Not really.
All season tires have certain characteristics that allow them to work in freezing/icey/snowy conditions which allows them to wear the M&S symbol. None of the summer tires, Extreme or Max, have these characteristics. In fact, it's probably the single clearest category distinction in all of TR's "tire bins".
Note that TR does test all-season UHP tires, so there is good data out there. They just don't typically do cross-category testing. But you can do a little extrapolation by looking at various tests. Not same day, but the trends are so large, it's pretty obvious what is going on.
Andy Hollis said:mfennell said:Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't all these categories (UHP, etc) just made-up bins that Tire Rack assigns each tire to based on whatever hand-wavy thing they choose?
Not really.
All season tires have certain characteristics that allow them to work in freezing/icey/snowy conditions which allows them to wear the M&S symbol. None of the summer tires, Extreme or Max, have these characteristics. In fact, it's probably the single clearest category distinction in all of TR's "tire bins".
I would argue that the only true distinction is the M&S symbol. The rest is TR hand waving.
I'm not saying it's bad, necessarily, as it provides some hints to buyers, but when I see discussions comparing the classes TR has created, I think it's important to remember that there's no rigor behind these assignments. It's their best guess. "Extreme" and "Max" have no real meaning. Tire manufacturers don't build to "Extreme" requirements because no such thing exists (AFAIK).
mfennell said:I would argue that the only true distinction is the M&S symbol. The rest is TR hand waving.
I'm not saying it's bad, necessarily, as it provides some hints to buyers, but when I see discussions comparing the classes TR has created, I think it's important to remember that there's no rigor behind these assignments. It's their best guess. "Extreme" and "Max" have no real meaning. Tire manufacturers don't build to "Extreme" requirements because no such thing exists (AFAIK).
There one more hard and fast category...Competition. If it says "not for highway use", it goes there. 
What you say is about 70% true. The other 30% is the industry targeting different market segments for various models, and TR is closely tied to those manufacturers and many of those decisions. There's a lot more to those relationships that goes on behind the scenes, much of which is never publicly revealed.
For example, TR provides testing services for some big names of new products before they are available. "Confirmation testing" so they can see where those tires will end up landing when finally reviewed publicly. They also test products that they do not yet carry as a "taste test" for potential sale.
Pricing and potential sales, are also discussion points. All of that includes a feedback loop to the manufacturer.
TR is way more influential to the industry than a simple retailer/wholesaler of tires.
Andy Hollis said:TR is way more influential to the industry than a simple retailer/wholesaler of tires.
Wow. No kidding! Thanks for chiming in.
Andy Hollis said:mfennell said:Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't all these categories (UHP, etc) just made-up bins that Tire Rack assigns each tire to based on whatever hand-wavy thing they choose?
Note that TR does test all-season UHP tires, so there is good data out there. They just don't typically do cross-category testing. But you can do a little extrapolation by looking at various tests. Not same day, but the trends are so large, it's pretty obvious what is going on.
I'm really glad I took your advice and purchased the Conti ECS 02 earlier this year. I'm a numbers guys, but it was your subjective feedback that really convinced me.
If you look at tire racks lap time data dry vs wet:
Pirelli P Zero AS Plus 3: 29.11 / 30.99
Conti ECS 02: 28.64 / 29.87
They haven't tested run of the mill summer UHP tires since 2019 and with a different car.
General GMax RS: 30.77 / 34.73
Michelin Pilot Sport All Season 4: 30.40 / 33.61
I think it's reasonable that one could ask if should they buy a value oriented summer UHP vs a longer lasting all season UHP. Outside of the top tier "max" tires, Summer UHP seems like a neglected category. I get your point that perhaps GRM isn't the place to do it.
Snrub said:I think it's reasonable that one could ask if should they buy a value oriented summer UHP vs a longer lasting all season UHP. Outside of the top tier "max" tires, Summer UHP seems like a neglected category. I get your point that perhaps GRM isn't the place to do it.
One can always ask. 
But here's the thing...if you want a budget solution for grassroots level motorsports, including some dual-use on the street...all-seasons are not the right answer. Something like a Hankook RS4 will deliver much better value. All-seasons will destroy themselves on the track. All that void plus compounds that turn on in freezing temps means they will overheat immediately and chunk when pushed to the limit for a track session.
"All season" does not mean longer lasting. Quite the contrary. They are designed to be able to work in sub-freezing and icy/snowy conditions. The only thing that makes UHP A/S tires a thing is that they have some sportiness built into the handling characteristics...for street use.
Agreed. "Longer lasting," i.e., the higher tread wear number that these often come with, is only valid for the intended use on the street.
There is a guy on a VW forum who will die on the hill of saying his Michelin Pilot Sport All Season 4's are "great track tires" giving him "98%" of a dedicated track tire.
Um, no...but you can't disagree with him, even after asking
"how many laps did you get out of them?"
And he responded "about two."
"So what happened?"
"They started feeling kind of greasy and when I pulled into the pits after a session, there were chunks of tread missing."
...
"98%" ... Cool story bro.
These are tires for the street that provide a modicum of sportiness and light winter driving. I've seen statements that manufacturers received feedback from customers that they wanted a tire that works in different temperature ranges because they don't want to switch out tires for each season. The Michelin Pilot Sport All Season (PSAS) 4 can even be had as an OEM tire on the C8 Corvette now, apparently for that very reason.
Like many products, when used for the intended purpose, their fine. Try to make them into something they are not will bring tears.
Tire Rack interview with the Michelin Project Manager for the Pilot Sport line.
https://youtu.be/NhrUe7j4FVw?si=BQz44x3Zbzirl09s
Tyre Reviews video on the PSAS 4 on the C8.
In reply to roninsoldier83 :
While my Contis are maybe a generation old. I did the same transition as you.
Fortunately I had tried their rather unpopular predecessor as rally cross tires in 2007. They had a window of performance that meant I could drive to an event on them on salted cold pavement at 70MPH and not be afraid of exit ramps or corners. Then had rather funny amounts of high grip in the snowy or cold sandy rallycross courses.
Based on that prior knowledge I was happy to chose the DWS 06s to allow me to travel through the deep snow of northern lower Michigan and also have some cornering capabilities in the summer. Mostly I felt they were the balance of not disintegrating in the summer with EVO8 launches and hard rotations into corners in summer and not have me sliding off an icy road while stopped at a red light on some desolate wind blown highway.
We run the DWS06 on the Mazda 3.........I think they are great all around tire and do great in snow and rain.
I run ECS on the BRZ also a bit fan. I also ran them on a previous NC Miata and was a fan. Although I was bit annoyed the ECS 2 came out like 2 months after my wheels were installed.
I have a lot of experience with both the tires you mentioned (DWS and Sport 02) and they are more similar than they are different. I'm also in Utah so very similar climate.
The DWS is the best all-around tire, and is the best winter tire on the market when the pavement is dry, period. They both have fairly soft sidewalls compared to a 200tw like the Conti EC Force, so they require more pressure. The sport 02 has more heat tolerance, so it's better for extended hard driving, more so when it's warmer, and it's definitely the better track tire, although still not where it shines. I like running the DWS in the spring and fall, they're great for cold Canyon runs. They have dependable grip all the time except when they get super hot. Sport 02 is better when it's above 60°.
So for the scenario you are describing, my vote is definitely DWS. I run 205/45R16's on a 16x8. If you stretch them a bit on a wide wheel, they feel incredibly precise, which negates most of the soft sidewall negatives.
Found this thread as I am on the hunt for some new tires for my 2000 MCoupe. It came to me with nearly new Direzza II's, which now 10 years on are well past their prime.
I think I want something with less grip to be able to get the car to move around a little at sane speeds. It's just a street car, no track work. I have Conti ECS on my first gen rx7, and I'd say they have too much grip for the street. Make the car less playful.
I'm looking at UHP all seasons as maybe the goldie locks solution for the MZ3. My main parameter is wet performance with resistance to hydroplaning. I'm in NC and this car won't see snow or even extreme cold. Having good crisp turn in would be great but maybe not easy to get in this class tire.
sevenracer said:I think I want something with less grip to be able to get the car to move around a little at sane speeds. It's just a street car, no track work. I have Conti ECS on my first gen rx7, and I'd say they have too much grip for the street. Make the car less playful.
I'm looking at UHP all seasons as maybe the goldie locks solution for the MZ3. My main parameter is wet performance with resistance to hydroplaning. I'm in NC and this car won't see snow or even extreme cold. Having good crisp turn in would be great but maybe not easy to get in this class tire.
"Wet performance with resistance to hydroplaning + no snow or extreme cold" = Conti ECS02. Period. No contest. Do not pass go, do not entertain other suggestions.
"But I want less grip in the dry" Huh? Are you not well?
If you want less dry grip, overpressure the tire...maybe add 6 psi...play with it until you get the feel you are after. Higher pressures will actually help hydroplane resistance, too. Or simply run a narrower wheel tire package.
You aren't going to get amazing wet performance in a tire that's crappy in the dry.
Good thing this is a thread about tires that aren't total crap in the dry.
If he says he doesn't want all of the grip of a summer tire, then a top-rated UHP may work for his needs.
In reply to Andy Hollis :
Oddly my one complaint about the Contis is that while they have irrational levels of grip in the wet, they also seem to hydroplane very easily. Like, I have never experienced hydroplaning in my driving life until I hit some puddles at only 65mph with the Contis.
I really wish that BFG still made the G Force Sport. Now there was a tire if you encountered standing water. But it didn't work when it was cold and the Contis seem to work well when it is cold (as long as there is no slush/snow)
Andy Hollis said:sevenracer said:I think I want something with less grip to be able to get the car to move around a little at sane speeds. It's just a street car, no track work. I have Conti ECS on my first gen rx7, and I'd say they have too much grip for the street. Make the car less playful.
I'm looking at UHP all seasons as maybe the goldie locks solution for the MZ3. My main parameter is wet performance with resistance to hydroplaning. I'm in NC and this car won't see snow or even extreme cold. Having good crisp turn in would be great but maybe not easy to get in this class tire.
"Wet performance with resistance to hydroplaning + no snow or extreme cold" = Conti ECS02. Period. No contest. Do not pass go, do not entertain other suggestions.
"But I want less grip in the dry" Huh? Are you not well?
If you want less dry grip, overpressure the tire...maybe add 6 psi...play with it until you get the feel you are after. Higher pressures will actually help hydroplane resistance, too. Or simply run a narrower wheel tire package.
You aren't going to get amazing wet performance in a tire that's crappy in the dry.
I guess I should clarify - I pretty much specifically mean resistance to hydroplaning as far as wet performance. I've always thought this car felt a little dicey in standing water type situations at highway speeds with the Direzza's.
As far as dry grip - I'm following the put "Primacy's on a Toyobaru" logic (i.e. good handling characteristics you can play with at lower speeds) to make it more fun on the street. I thought ECS's at 340TW would get me there vs the 200TW Direzza, but the Conti's on my rx7 have tons of grip (and to your point have been excellent in heavy rain).
Higher pressures seems like it would reduce steering feel, and I'm not looking to change wheels.
I think I mainly want to be able to induce power oversteer more easily at lower speeds. Maybe I should just get some 3.73 gears, lol.
Anyway, I may be disappointed with the result, but I think I'm going to give it a shot with some UHP AS tires.
In reply to sevenracer :
I never had issues inducing oversteer in my 99 M Coupe with a little throttle lift. You just need to clamp it back down by adding back a little throttle once it goes tail out.
In reply to sevenracer :
I ran continental DWS UHP all-seasons on my last MINI and loved them. They handled standing water nicely, had more than enough dry grip to be entertaining, and could handle light snow. I have the ECS on my Miata and it will corner at insane speeds, but if I ever make a mistake I'll be going all that much faster when I hit the trees. Many years ago, Road&Track had a column called "Retrospective" (I think) and they would test drive old cars. Once the writer was driving an MG-TC at speed on Mulholland Drive. I remember he said it was fun and he was drifting corners at the speed limit. We can't do that today.
In reply to DeadSkunk (Warren) :
Yes, because they don't make performance tires anymore that aren't size steamroller.
A decade ago, on my first Volvo (2800lb front driver) I had 195/55-15 (BFG gFS) and they were perfect.
Going back another decade, I adored the 185/60-14 AVS-i tires on my Golf. Perfect for a 2200lb car.
Now it's hard to find performance tires narrower than 245 unless you can use a 205/50-15 because people make that size for Miata racers, because everything is 4000lb or more.
I'd be curious to hear what the OP feels about the Contis now that he's had them on the car a while?
I run the latest version of the Conti on my Audi Allroads and I really like them. I AM a "spirited" driver, my previous car was a MINI Cooper Clubman S that I did a lot of track days with - some on the Contis tho I usually put on my summer tires for track days.
I am super happy with them for my year round road cars, the Allroad is super capable in snow so it's not much of a test there but it's great in rain and I especially like how quiet and smooth riding they are. I agree that they take about 1000 miles to "break in, and they drive better once that mileage has been driven.
For the OP with his rear drive BMW, I think I would have advised him to stay on his summer tires and buy some Blizzaks if he wants to drive it in winter conditions.
JoeTR6 said:In reply to sevenracer :
I never had issues inducing oversteer in my 99 M Coupe with a little throttle lift. You just need to clamp it back down by adding back a little throttle once it goes tail out.
Oh yeah, they're notorious for lift throttle oversteer. I dont get any of that street driving with the direzzas.
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