I never thought I'd ask.
Pretty much the only flavor of automobile I have yet to explore is something big, American, and very fast in a straight line. I've always thought that in that category, a Grand National is pretty much the only car I'd drive. They seem to be pretty reasonably priced as long as you're not looking for a flawless show queen or a GNX.
Can they be made to handle? What about putting an actual manual transmission in there? Problem areas? Am I, like, required to grow a mullet if I get one?
All the full-on "Grand Nationals" I've ever seen for sale were going for $10k+. You might be able to find a T-type for less, but I'm not sure of the differences between the T-Type, GN, and GNX, only that each one is successively faster.
If you're going for drag racing, you're gonna want an automatic, though. The consistency alone is worth the weight and drivetrain loss.
A 3.8L Camaro/Firebird will supply manual transmission components, you will need to source Gbody pedals etc as well. Gbodies can handle as well, A lot of S10 parts fit the front suspension and the rear is a very simple 4 link with coil springs. Look for rust on the rear third of the frame, it can cause issues with the rear bumper and suspension.
You would rock with a mullet.
John Brown wrote:
Look for rust on the rear third of the frame, it can cause issues with the rear bumper and suspension.
Like falling off. I would qualify that as an issue. BTDT.
I too have seriously been entertaining the thought of a restomod G-body...Im thinking cutlass though
http://cleveland.craigslist.org/cto/1920094574.html
ReverendDexter wrote:
All the full-on "Grand Nationals" I've ever seen for sale were going for $10k+. You might be able to find a T-type for less, but I'm not sure of the differences between the T-Type, GN, and GNX, only that each one is successively faster.
I don't know where you're looking, but I can find a scruffy-yet-solid GN in the $5k-8k range pretty easily. It's the GNX's that are worth big money. GN's and T-Types have a remarkably similar price point.
SlickDizzy wrote:
I don't know where you're looking, but I can find a scruffy-yet-solid GN in the $5k-8k range pretty easily. It's the GNX's that are worth big money. GN's and T-Types have a remarkably similar price point.
PRC. All the cool cars cost more here.
pseudosport used to have a g-body monte in highschool that i believe he put 3g camaro goodies on and made it handle significantly better. i like the 3 pedal GN idea.
Worked at a chevy dealership as a lot tech back in the late 80's.... had some fun times with 350 iroc's and corvettes. A used buick GN came in and I just had to take it out and see what it could do. It was the fastest american production car at the time and it was impressive. Seems as if nowadays you can find two types of used GN's: those from people who held on to them as collector cars and did not drive them much and those who monkeyed with them enough to render them unoriginal. take your pick.
The older ones are cheap, the later ones have more power and are more expensive. I used to want one and read about them alot, and from what i read, manual transmission swaps are pretty disapointing with that engine, they are better left automatic.
Turbo Buicks are cool. The GN and T-Type are mechanically identical. Favored flavor is 86-87 intercooled, earlier "air cars" are not as fast. No need to pay up for originality. Kenne Bell sources all manner of go-fast parts that strengthen things. The only big trouble source on an unmodified car is the exhaust manifolds, which crack, but this is going to have been addressed on most drivers. Paint was marginal from the factory, so no penalty for a decent respray. Chassis mods are out there. A good source for maintenance and upgrade info is gmhightechperformance.com.
Like any G body, the circle track catalogs have you covered on the suspension.
John Brown wrote:
A 3.8L Camaro/Firebird will supply manual transmission components, you will need to source Gbody pedals etc as well. Gbodies can handle as well, A lot of S10 parts fit the front suspension and the rear is a very simple 4 link with coil springs. Look for rust on the rear third of the frame, it can cause issues with the rear bumper and suspension.
You would rock with a mullet.
A couple cuts and welds and you can use the 3rd gen Camaro pedals and hydralics to save a bit more coin
SlickDizzy wrote:
I never thought I'd ask.
wrings hands in anticipation Yes. Yes. Oh yes.
Can they be made to handle? What about putting an actual manual transmission in there? Problem areas? Am I, like, required to grow a mullet if I get one?
GNs are just G-bodies, everything that applies to G-bodies applies to them.
Why in the world would you want a manual transmission? It's a big turbo engine. If there ever was anything that screamed "Give me an automatic!", this is it.
You put your big honkin' turbo on there, and size the torque converter appropriately. If the turbo doesn't come on-song until 3500, with a manual trans you have to row around and all sorts of funny crap. The automatic, you just push the skinny pedal down and you're gone. You don't even have to lift to shift, so you are riding a seamless wave of BOOOOOOOOOOOOST.
And let me tell ya. The difference between a high-nines GN and a stock GN drivability-wise is negligible. And that high-nines car will still have a full interior and cold A/C, and probably even have a "stock appearing" turbo.
I work on just a few of these as part of my day job.
I almost bought one instead of my Civic but the disco '80s brown, black fiberglass hood, lack of manual and gas mileage kinda turned me against that example. Kinda regret it though.
John Brown wrote:
A 3.8L Camaro/Firebird will supply manual transmission components,
No, it won't. There was never a 3.8 powered F-body. There was a 3800 powered F-body, which is a different engine with a different bellhousing pattern.
The GN engine has the BOP pattern, while the 3800 would have the 60-degree V6 pattern.
A GN engine in any moderate state of tune would make a T5 puke its guts out, anyway.
im thinkin 3.8 + boost = more driveable for cone-dodging fun. The smaller engine should be more compliant with less tail out shenanigans.
If I wanted to go in a straight line though, slushbox seems the way to go!
4cylndrfury wrote:
im thinkin 3.8 + boost = more driveable for cone-dodging fun. The smaller engine should be more compliant with less tail out shenanigans.
The boost lag would suck, no? Turbo engines work great when they are moderately low amounts of boost on an engine that can make good power all on its lonesome. A low compression 3.8l V6 in a 3800-pound car doesn't seem like it'd be very quick off-boost.
IMO, it's just not that kind of car.
Now, if you were talking road course work, then that would be kinda neat, and is something I keep considering. Although, I wouldn't start with a GN, I'd build a clone, which is cheaper if you can find a clean shell.
There's a lot of GN clones out there. Grand Nationals never had vacuum brakes, or hood ornaments... but I've seen a few that did. 
(Some people do swap out the electronic brake doodad for vacuum assist)
a manual trans doesn't work well with the turbo 3.8 in the Regal chassis. people have done it, and they have regretted it.
and no, you can't use the late 90's Camaro 3.8 manual transmission parts that someone else mentioned since the Camaro 3.8 is a totally uses the smaller bellhousing pattern and is a totally different engine.. but a few GN guys are throwing turbos on the Camaro 3.8 and putting them in their GNs and making insane power on stock long blocks- as in 9 second 1/4 mile power with gas mileage in the mid 20's and stock driveability...
yes, they can be made to handle. there are a lot of good companies making a lot of good chassis and suspension goodies for those cars. ATS, SC&C, Hotchkis, Global West, etc. are all well known companies that make suspension goodies for them, and there are a lot of smaller niche companies that specialize in stiffening up the chassis.
my car handles pretty damn good with just some ancient Rancho shocks and 245/50 tires on 16X8 Trans Am GTA wheels. just adding a set of front frame braces from a Monte Carlo SS really stiffened up the front of the car and got rid of a few annoying squeaks and rattles.
as for the mass of the cars, they aren't really all that heavy if you get them properly optioned- my 84 T Type has minimal options and weighs in the neighborhood of 3300 pounds. that's about the same as the 71 Nova i used to have. fully loaded cars with t tops, power windows and locks, power seats, etc. can push closer to 4000 pounds.
physically, the cars really aren't all that big, either. unless you have never driven anything bigger than a Miata, they won't seen terribly big.
Knurled wrote:
John Brown wrote:
A 3.8L Camaro/Firebird will supply manual transmission components,
No, it won't. There was never a 3.8 powered F-body. There was a *3800* powered F-body, which is a different engine with a different bellhousing pattern.
The GN engine has the BOP pattern, while the 3800 would have the 60-degree V6 pattern.
A GN engine in any moderate state of tune would make a T5 puke its guts out, anyway.
but there was a 3.8 powered F body- in '89. the 20th anniversary Turbo Trans Am had the '87 GN engine and transmission, except it had better cylinder heads from the newer fwd 3.8 Series 1.. this was also the only F body to ever get the 200-4r overdrive transmission.
novaderrik wrote: but a few GN guys are throwing turbos on the Camaro 3.8 and putting them in their GNs and making insane power on stock long blocks- as in 9 second 1/4 mile power with gas mileage in the mid 20's and stock driveability...
You can make that kind of power with the 109 block, too, but it takes a bit of work. Ultimate power limit of the 109 seems to be about 1000hp.
The nice thing about the Series II engine (what was used in the Camaro) is that it's a seriously stout little unit. The decks are shorter, yet the block is heavier. It's all crossbolted and beefed beyond beef, since it's from the modern school of making the block really sturdy for NVH reasons.
We haven't tried building a high powered Series II yet. I'm not involved in the details, but given how various race series will specify stock blocks, unported heads, and so on, I don't see us trying for a while.
BTW - 1000hp was with stock heads...
novaderrik wrote:
but there was a 3.8 powered F body- in '89. the 20th anniversary Turbo Trans Am had the '87 GN engine and transmission, except it had better cylinder heads from the newer fwd 3.8 Series 1.. this was also the only F body to ever get the 200-4r overdrive transmission.
...I remembered that while I was posting something else. You got me
IIRC, it was the only post-'81 F-body to get anything with a BOP pattern trans.
plance1 wrote:
It was the fastest american production car at the time and it was impressive.
IIRC, the claim was fastest 0-to-60 car. Popular Mechanics had an article (sidebar?) about that claim and put it to the test against an automatic Corvette. The 0-to-10, 20, 30, 40, 50 times for the Vette were faster. The GN was a tick faster to 60, but then to 70 and up, the Vette had it beat. PM attributed it to the shift pattern of the Vette. It would upshift at 58 mph, thereby slowing briefly. Lined up against a manual Vette, all the times of the GN were slightly slower.
Still, I think GNs are kickass.
Knurled wrote:
4cylndrfury wrote:
im thinkin 3.8 + boost = more driveable for cone-dodging fun. The smaller engine should be more compliant with less tail out shenanigans.
Now, if you were talking road course work, then that would be kinda neat, and is something I keep considering. Although, I wouldn't start with a GN, I'd build a clone, which is cheaper if you can find a clean shell.
Exactly what i was thinking . I may be waaay off in left field but I seem to remember the Olds cutlass G-bodies were the lightest of the bunch because they were less frills - manual bench seats, roll up windows, manual locks etc. Add a little more lightness by ditching AC and some more interior, fiberglass hood, start punching holes in things, replace some stamped steel suframes and control arms with some DOM tubing, and you may end up with a svelte little coupe. Then set up a 3.8 with a smallish turbo (say 10psi or thereabouts) that wont lag too bad, get the right combo in the diff and you may have a car capable of making real, controllable power at the wheels, be light enough to rotate on purpose, and look badass too.
