Lemons to Challenge conversion - budget question

So, at the end of a Lemons race, Jay assigns a value to your heap so you can get a budget for racing next time.

So, if he assigns $50, does that mean that I have $20xx - $50 to go to the challenge with?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Not to be a downer, but I'd say no. The budget is how much money you have in the car; not what the "value" of the car is. FMV applies to "free" stuff.

You're such a downer!

I understand, I just would have to come up with some value for the car post-race, since it obviously won't be worth what it was worth at the start of the race. As if it had been sold to someone after Lemons...

Is that taking it too far?

Yes, that's taking it too far. Fair market value is what the car is worth on the open market, not in Jay Lamm's tunnel-vision world. For example, Jay's assigned value ignores all of the budget items that the LeMons budget ignores...your wheels, tires, cage, seat, brakes, exhaust, battery switch, etc. can all provide benefit in the $2010 challenge and are counted in your $2010 budget, but those are all ignored in LeMons.

This is why LeMons is getting carried away with their "$500" claim...they ignore "safety" components, which get more expensive every year. Those "safety" components are really performance enhancers if you ask GRM/Per.

Bryce

Actually GRM/Per have been getting more in line with allowing some of the safety items to a limit. Brake parts as long as they are OEM stock are allowed. The new ruling on cages was a big boost to our Lemons to GRM conversion budget. Wish they'd allow fuel systems since the cell I need for Lemons is a hefty chunk of the budget.

FYI for our Lemons to GRM budget its all the same, we arent depreciating the car any between events.

Your cell was expensive? Ours was $25 from a guy my Dad knew or some such nonsense...

tuna55 wrote: Your cell was expensive? Ours was $25 from a guy my Dad knew or some such nonsense...

Because of the location of our cell we need to run a full steel cased cell with foam. Our cell will be in the old engine bay, right against the firewall so its not an ideal spot for driver safety, sadly its about the only space we have to put it other than in the cabin which requires an FIA rated cell which is even more money.

Beware of cheap cells, I had a long talk with Nick over at Lemons and he said that the drag or street cells that are available so cheap (RCI) are in Jay's opinion molatov cocktails and they are scrutinized heavily in tech.

huh - we raced ours for two races now - foam and everything - other than not being in steel, I can't see a difference.

This where the $500 car rule is really odd.

It costs way more than $500 to build a Lemons car. The safety gear is many times more expensive. Things like wheels/tires/brakes are part of safety for sure, but also part of performance.

I can understand the idea of taking them out for Lemons. Guys are in cars for long time wheel to wheel so bad things can happen. I would rather see guys spend good money on a cage/seat/harness vs trying to do it all on shoe string. Hmm turbo or cage? The Lemons rules takes the decision out of the buget limit. Good for them.

Challenge is fundemenatally different in that there is no wheel to wheel. Only autocross, drag and concour. You won't get hurt in concour and autocross/drag limit exposure. Of course most drag groups require more safety gear at certain speeds. Some challenge cars run really good drag times.

I guess a way you could take Lemons car and run it in challenge is to take the lemons build cost per challenge rules and then factor in some depreciation %. maybe 1% per hour run to max of 15%. I don't know... that could be a good way to caputure the spirit of both.

JThw8 wrote: Actually GRM/Per have been getting more in line with allowing some of the safety items to a limit. Brake parts as long as they are OEM stock are allowed. The new ruling on cages was a big boost to our Lemons to GRM conversion budget. Wish they'd allow fuel systems since the cell I need for Lemons is a hefty chunk of the budget. FYI for our Lemons to GRM budget its all the same, we arent depreciating the car any between events.

I didn't realize LeMons allowed bolt-in cages, I always weld ours in. Even so, it doesn't seem like the new GRM ruling allowing bolt-in cages will help much. I mean, are you really leaving the cage in? I'm pretty sure you won't be breaking 11.49, and I don't see how it could improve your performance otherwise. If you're using a bolt-in for LeMons, why not just pull it out and add lightness for $2010?

All that aside, the LeMons budget can still EASILY accomodate a >$2010 car. They don't count seats, tires, wheels, exhaust, steering wheel, instrumentation, pedals, fuel system, lighting, mirrors, electrical switch, etc. that would count in your GRM $2010 budget.

Bryce

tuna55 wrote: huh - we raced ours for two races now - foam and everything - other than not being in steel, I can't see a difference.

If you've got the foam and all then its not one of the cheap cells Jay is worried about. He's worried about the cheap drag race cells that are nothing more than an aluminum or plastic box with fuel fittings. They were concerned with ours because its directly in front of the driver and even with grommets and all around wiring/cables/pedals the firewall is not going to stop that fire if things go bad so that asked (not required) that we use the same specs that would be done if we put it inside the cabin. We could always pull it out and toss one of the cheap drag cells in for GRM if we get tight on the budget.

Nashco wrote: I didn't realize LeMons allowed bolt-in cages, I always weld ours in. Even so, it doesn't seem like the new GRM ruling allowing bolt-in cages will help much. I mean, are you really leaving the cage in? I'm pretty sure you won't be breaking 11.49, and I don't see how it could improve your performance otherwise. If you're using a bolt-in for LeMons, why not just pull it out and add lightness for $2010? All that aside, the LeMons budget can still EASILY accomodate a >$2010 car. They don't count seats, tires, wheels, exhaust, steering wheel, instrumentation, pedals, fuel system, lighting, mirrors, electrical switch, etc. that would count in your GRM $2010 budget. Bryce

Lemons does allow it although they prefer weld in. Given my preferences I'd weld it in too, but $800 is a big chunk of budget to give up. Because the dash will have to be cut to get the cage past it we may just keep it. Who said we wont be breaking 11.49? ;) If we do it will be going off a cliff but that's another story. Still the car will actually probably be tracked after GRM at NJMP so we'll just leave the cage. We're doing plenty of adding lightness and we dont really intend to be competitive either way.

Mine is weld in, but it cost $150 used from an old circle track guy. Yup - some 80s G body got cut in half and resurrected in our Amazon. It fit, sorta.

Re the fuel cells, I guess the drag racer in me is wincing a bit, because most (if not all) real drag racers have foam in the tank, so calling them 'cheap drag race cells' is kind of wrong. Those are mostly for pro street wannabes who want the bling without anything else.

We definitely won't be breaking 11.49, or 15.49... but things will have to be added, like a dash, lights, horn and other crap we don't have, so I was curious. But the main reason is that we have entered Lemons three times (about to be four) and so the car has had a bunch of money thrown at it. If you truly add it all up, it's probably gotten over $2010 with the four races - one race had us rebuild the engine, another had us rebuild the transmission, etc... So I can see how a first time lemons etrant can easily make the cost cutoff, but after four times, things add up.

Ya know?

-Brian

I'd like to see what a LeMons car would do at the Challenge.

Therefore, I decree that any LeMons finishing car can run at the Challenge as-is, with a FMV of $2010 in the "Special" class, since they don't typically meet our other rules.

Per

Woot!

Be prepared for the Hot Rod Lincoln!

Per Schroeder wrote: I'd like to see what a LeMons car would do at the Challenge. Therefore, I decree that any LeMons finishing car can run at the Challenge as-is, with a FMV of $2010 in the "Special" class, since they don't typically meet our other rules. Per

Well that makes it easier!!!!

But ... I think we're still saying that it's not really hard to Lemons at a total cost of $2010 ... what it is hard to do is not convert for competitive reasons. We want to clean up the body for concourse, lighten for drag, and re-tune/re-tire for autox.... So we'll remove some of the expensive parts that are needed for lemons and replace with GRM budget friendly parts to add other things we'd like to have for GRM.

I disagree with tuna55- I'm pretty sure we didn't break 2 grand on the car cost. We did a cheapie engine rebuild, I scored a rebuilt long block B20 on craigslist for 200 bucks from a guy whose wife wanted it GONE. Cam, lifters, timing gear, and sundry gaskets and whatnot were right up to about 300 clams, it was close but we did it- and came in under 500 bucks for th folowing race- Jay had assigned us a 2 or 3 cent residual value. The tranny rebuild for this race cost us $170 in parts- labor was free as we did it ourselves. We have a $100 Dana gear from another race, about $100 in suspension bushings, free spings cut down, Random scrap/ free sheetmetal, the cage AND racing seat were the steal of the century at $100 for both of them, the car was $250 originally and we've spent about $200 on the brakes. Fuel cell: 25, wheels: 200, and for the challenge we'll proabbly buy new tires at $240. Oh, and we spent $20 on a gallon of rust-o-leum and $10 on some acrylic paints. So that brings us up to (punches numbers) $1915. I'm sure I missed a few little items here and there, but basically, I think we're within the limit.

Per Schroeder, as soon as we can put together enough of the guys to enter, we'll be there with our Tunachucker Volvo Amazon. That's a promise. Thank you!

Yeah, what LittleturqoiseB said. C'mon if we can make it work with the Wartburg its doable anywhere.

Although I do see Tuna's point about a car that has run mulitple Lemons and therefore needed different rounds of repair. IMO you should figure that car at the residual given by Jay from the prior race + inventment to get prepped for the next race + safety equipment not exempted by GRM.

The Wartburg will defnitely require some parts manipulation to pull out some stuff after lemons and replace it with more budget friendly items for GRM. As well as putting back required items that were removed.

Many thanks to Per for making an offer to make this easier though. We had thought about asking if just running the "special" class was possible but the team decided for the ToC we wanted to run GRM as a legitimate competitor.

Yeah - VCH is wrong. He's forgetting Hawk brake pads and the mustang calipers and the various fluids and associated other "free" Lemons items that we take for granted. That's okay though, he's alright and his girlfriend makes decent stuffed shells, even if she is 15 years younger than he is.

The special class sounds nice, Per. What's the entry fee for this thing?

@tuna55:

"200 for brakes" did include the mustang calipers (which were $40) and they came with pads, which we could swap out the Hawks for if pressed. We went with the Hawks more for longevity than for stopping performance, not so much of a concern for the $2010 challenge.

You're just jealous of my hot, young, good-cookin' car-lovin' lady. ;-)

Per Schroeder wrote: I'd like to see what a LeMons car would do at the Challenge. Therefore, I decree that any LeMons finishing car can run at the Challenge as-is, with a FMV of $2010 in the "Special" class, since they don't typically meet our other rules. Per

Well there you have it! The man speaks!

volvoclearinghouse wrote: the guys to enter, we'll be there with our Tunachucker Volvo Amazon. That's a promise. Thank you!

Awesome! An Amazon at the Challenge!

Per Schroeder wrote: I'd like to see what a LeMons car would do at the Challenge. Therefore, I decree that any LeMons finishing car can run at the Challenge as-is, with a FMV of $2010 in the "Special" class, since they don't typically meet our other rules. Per

Careful with that. You may want to include a "...and did not receive penalty laps" clause in there somewhere, assuming you don't want OPM prepped Spec Miatas showing up at the Challenge.

poopshovel wrote:

Per Schroeder wrote: I'd like to see what a LeMons car would do at the Challenge. Therefore, I decree that any LeMons finishing car can run at the Challenge as-is, with a FMV of $2010 in the "Special" class, since they don't typically meet our other rules. Per

Careful with that. You may want to include a "...and did not receive penalty laps" clause in there somewhere, assuming you don't want OPM prepped Spec Miatas showing up at the Challenge.

running in the "specials" class, who gives a berkeley? besides, challenge veterans have pretty good bullE36 M3 sniffers. someone may be impressed, but it probably won't be us.

poopshovel wrote:

Per Schroeder wrote: I'd like to see what a LeMons car would do at the Challenge. Therefore, I decree that any LeMons finishing car can run at the Challenge as-is, with a FMV of $2010 in the "Special" class, since they don't typically meet our other rules. Per

Careful with that. You may want to include a "...and did not receive penalty laps" clause in there somewhere, assuming you don't want OPM prepped Spec Miatas showing up at the Challenge.

Also be careful with that, poop, because something like 75% of the cars got at least one BS lap last time at CMP. I understand your point, though. Not sure how to judge it.

Yea, I thought of that, but figured that in the specials class, it just doesn't matter.

Note, it does say "LeMons FINISHING" car.