Licenced road racers, a question!

I was recently asked by an old SCCA Corner Worker buddy of mine (he raced IT for a minute or two as well, and is now in the Safety Steward program) my input upon a question about the "oil flag".

As workers (in SCCA, YMMV), we were instructed to call this flag the "surface flag", and display it for any track surface problem, whether it's oil, heavy "marbles", solid pieces in the road, or dirt/gravel carried back on the road after somebody goes that far off the circuit. My buddy told me that another SEDIV Steward who still races had an incident where he expected oil, and hit debris instead, and is now wondering if it would help for CWs to have a way to communicate to drivers whether the surface trouble is liquid or solid.

We're now considering that perhaps there should be different signals for "wet" surface conditions vs. "dry" ones. We've kind of discarded any kind of "steady vs. waving" or "full vs. folded" stuff, so that the signal wouldn't be distorted by people who "over-flag" (like folks do sometimes with the Blue). At the moment, we're considering a board to be displayed with the flag. The board would have "W" (wet) on one side for fluids, and "D" (dry) on the other for loose parts/gravel/marbles/etc.

Anybody who's ever had a license (I haven't had one in 15yrs), please speak up! NASA, SCCA, Vintage, PCA/BMWCCA/other marque club...don't care what your license is. As long as you're going wheel-to-wheel, post up something! Is this really a problem? Should we tell you whether to expect oil or bumper covers?

National SCCA Liscense for 4 years.

I'd like to see two different flags. The more clarification the better. When I saw this flag I always assumed oil/coolant on the track because that stuff is slippery dangerous and you have a hard time seeing it on the track.

NASA and vintage license (VRG). Thirty years (on and off) of W2W racing.

I'm actually OK with it the way it is.

I just started racing (2nd race weekend coming up). While I think more information is usually a good thing, I'm starting to wonder if we are getting to the point of having too many flags. I don't think I'd want to see yet another flag I'd have to keep straight, but the W or D may be a useful addition. If all I get is a glance at a flag station I'll see the flag first, and know something is up. If I get a glance at a flag and a sign I'll know more.

D debris is typically pretty easy to see once I'm alerted. W is the stuff that's scary. I tend to treat it all the same anyway.

I've been road racing for 39 years. The only real problem I've had is when the flag is not displayed soon enough. At the speeds we travel it doesn't leave a lot of time to process multiple inputs. Anytime I see the oil flag I am just looking for the cause and a clear way through. Oil, water,dirt, marbles, body parts all require some adjustment to your line, speed or both. I don't see the need for anything other than the flag. Just fo informational puposes, I have been a class champion, SCCA Runoffs 11 times and 3rd in the Northeast in E Production SCCA Nationals the last 3 years.

Thanks, everyone! Personally, I ran in SCCA IT, but I was a corner worker for so long before I started driving that I could usually tell by the workers' hand signals back to the captain whether it was wet or dry (and sometimes actually where it was), so I wanted to see what others thought.

I'll pass it all along...and if anyone else has anything to add, please do!

I'm the 2009 HPDE champion of the universe, and I think a general debris flag is just fine. I just need to know that the track surface has something wrong ahead.

I wouldn't mind a Blue/Yellow striped flag for wet, and the normal debri flag for debri. Those are easy combos to keep track of and know what they mean. These flags will allow the driver to know what to expect when entering a corner. I honestly dont slow down too much when I see this flag b/c I expect to see a nose sitting in the middle of the track, so I don't care too much, if it's oil, I just slide into the gravel, no biggie. The varied flags would give me the info I need to make a better decision when entering a corner.

Danger ahead?

Isn't that what the red flag is for?

not quite... red flag = come to a controlled stop ... usually on the right side of the track where you can see a flag station and wait for instructions...

Flags should be simple. After seeing one, you continue at your own risk evaluating the situation as you proceed. No other action should be necessary by corner workers.

Speaking as a turn marshal, Usually less is more. Meaning sometimes we have only a few seconds to identify a hazard and evaluate it's implications to oncoming racers and use the correct flags and or hand signals. Generally I try use hand signals such as a pushing away with the palms outward or a pulling toward us to signal to the drivers what side of the track to steer clear of in conjunction with the "debris flag". Much the same way one would do in a caution flag situation also. Now, Speaking as a driver. My situational awareness on track is so much higher while racing since I have been flagging. There are things that I will take notice of that I would never have before.

thesnibborddot wrote: Speaking as a turn marshal, Usually less is more.

Ditto, with a twist. I'm not a turn marshall, just a gate guard and flag station guy on an open road race. The event I work only uses two flags on the course - yellow (standing or waving) and red. I can't see much of the course - maybe 1 mile out of 60 - and the speeds are high (85-200MPH+), so I depend on radio instructions for the areas I can't see. Sometimes those messages are fragmentary.

It's better to have a general caution flag out quickly than the wrong flag on time or a specific flag out too late.

As a moron driver, less is more, just be sure to advise in the driver's briefing that it could be oil or debris, a caution is a caution and it takes time to process which detail means what.

StevenFV19 wrote: I honestly dont slow down too much when I see this flag b/c I expect to see a nose sitting in the middle of the track, so I don't care too much, if it's oil, I just slide into the gravel, no biggie.

You don't spend a lot of time at the Glen then, eh?

thesnibborddot wrote: Speaking as a turn marshal, Usually less is more. Meaning sometimes we have only a few seconds to identify a hazard and evaluate it's implications to oncoming racers and use the correct flags and or hand signals. Generally I try use hand signals such as a pushing away with the palms outward or a pulling toward us to signal to the drivers what side of the track to steer clear of in conjunction with the "debris flag". Much the same way one would do in a caution flag situation also. Now, Speaking as a driver. My situational awareness on track is so much higher while racing since I have been flagging. There are things that I will take notice of that I would never have before.

I found the same to be true when I moved from working to driving. I just had much more situational awareness. A lot of my worker buddies couldn't believe my answer to "how'd you miss that?" was "well, I saw you pointing to it, trying to get (other worker's name) to look at it".

For anybody curious, here's a list of most of the major Corner Worker hand signals:

http://www.michiganturnmarshals.org/training/HandSignals_files/image005.jpg

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

StevenFV19 wrote: I honestly dont slow down too much when I see this flag b/c I expect to see a nose sitting in the middle of the track, so I don't care too much, if it's oil, I just slide into the gravel, no biggie.

You don't spend a lot of time at the Glen then, eh?

Haha, no Summit Point. Once I go to a track with an abundance of walls, Ill approach the flagged corner differently. I will try to hit the Glen next year along with Road Atl and Lime Rock

Steven

friedgreencorrado wrote: For anybody curious, here's a list of most of the major Corner Worker hand signals:

(To the tune of "Macarena")

When I was road racing motorcycles, generally at events at Summit w/ the excellent MARRC corner workers, the debris flag could be displayed as a full steady or waving flag, or as a triangle - each with different meaning.

In reply to slantvaliant:

ROFL! Yeah, it looks like that sometimes. I realized there's a couple of basic signs missing from that diagram.."check" (look at): using one hand to draw a large check sign in the air. and "car"/"number follows": arms crossed over chest with fists on the shoulders. There are also signs for numbers, but at speed you'll be past the worker before you can see the entire sign. And of course "what?": an exaggerated shrug of the shoulders with the arms held out.

And of course, most Regions go on to create other signals about their own local environments. In Atlanta, we had "squirrel": one hand in front of mouth with two fingers stuck down like buck teeth, and the other behind your butt waving like a squirrel's tail for an erratic driver, "window" :one hand cranking like it's on the window crank, and the other held flat above it and moving vertically like the top of the window (it gets hot in the summers here, and a lot of the Showroom Stock guys would roll up the windows & turn on the A/C), and "please": hands held together like praying and bowing like a Buddist. There were many more. Most regions with long tracks (spelled "safety & flagging stations far from the structure where the radio is") have enough signs that it's almost an ersatz form of Sign Language. I recall one summer event at Rd. Atl when a thunderstorm came through. I was cross-track safety at Turn 7, and the windows were down on my street car behind the corner station. I signaled "my" "car" "window" "please" to the Cap'n. He looked at my car, gave a thumbs up (which is used for "I understand" probably more often than it's used for "good luck"), and sent somebody to roll them up for me.

When I first started working corners, the sign for "leaking" required that you use your fist with the thumb sticking out like Navin Johnson's "special purpose". A lot of these signs were created in the 1950s-60s-70s, before the PC Police arrived. They especially hate "flat tire" (refers to a flat-chested woman), "leaking" (for what I just said), and "yellow" & "brown" (should be obvious).

The thing I get asked about the most is the colors. My mentors told me:

All hair is black. All eyes are blue. All lips are red. Money is green. Urine is yellow. BMW E36 M3 is brown. Our uniforms are white.

Oh, and for anyone who's interested, here's a page with the number signals:
http://www.michiganturnmarshals.org/training/HandSignals.htm

motomoron wrote: When I was road racing motorcycles, generally at events at Summit w/ the excellent MARRC corner workers, the debris flag could be displayed as a full steady or waving flag, or as a triangle - each with different meaning.

motomoron, I forgot about you Bikers! My fault, should have invited y'all too. The reason (although they won't say it publicly) folks here aren't talking about displaying the flag differently is because some workers are..well..to be polite, more "excitable" than others, and we're worried about the flag being shown inconsistently. One of the troubles with a volunteer group is that you need people so badly that you don't want to discourage anyone.

You're right about those MARRC folks, tho. Some of them also flagged in SCCA's MARRS (Mid Atlantic Road Racing Series). They rock. And personally, I think working bikes actually made me a better Corner Worker back in those days. It taught me to be open to "different" flagging rules, new hand signals, and taught me more situational awareness. After all, a loose bike can get into many more berkeleying places on a race track than a loose car.