Two cars have been chosen to contend in the SCCA’s new Club Spec classes for 2024: the NC-chassis Mazda MX-5 Miata and the earlier S197 (2005-’09) Ford Mustang GT.
[Introducing SCCA Club Spec - Multiple Motorsport Disciplines With One Car]
Each of these cars will get a well-developed set of affordable, specified bolt-on modifications that should make competition in the …
I'll bet the Miata class will look very, very much like MX-5 Cup because there are a bunch of cars in existence. I think they use Penske shocks, a sealed engine/ECU/transmission and are otherwise mostly just safety upgrades.
In reply to Tom1200 :
What would you suggest then? I can't think of anything that people might ACTUALLY buy, that are cheaper than an NC and early S197.
Tom1200 said:While I don't mean to be a wet blanket I fear I will be:
Define affordable?
I'm in my 34th year with SCCA and will be a lifelong member but what the folks at the National Office view as affordable is typically a skewed towards that small percentage of members that compete at the RunOffs.
If would be worth remembering that only about 10% of licensed drivers attend the RunOffs and those 10% who do, only make up 2-3% of SCCA members.
It would be nice if the rules were skewed towards regional "club" racer budgets and not Majors front runner budgets.
Note I'm not immune to the fact that spec classes purpose is to boost participation numbers rather than making racing affordable.
And finally just because someone has no intent to participate in a class doesn't mean they don't have good ideas.
I think both classes are likely to be popular but for God sakes please focus on the running costs.
You know this has nothing to do with club racing, right? These are TT/autocross classes.
In reply to dps214 :
He literally didn't read a thing.
camopaint0707 said:In reply to dps214 :
He literally didn't read a thing.
Yeah................. I'm a complete Fkin idiot this morning...............this is what I get for glancing at a topic on my phone.
Note I deleted my posts.
With that said my opinion remains the same; keep this for the local competitors. SCCA seems to focus on National level folks with these types of classes.
I'm actually kind of excited to see what comes of the S197 package. I've toyed with getting back into a V8, and that may be just the ticket to do so. My hangups with the Mustang was it was never as competitive as other V8 options, but if it's in it's own spec class, I'm right back in.
Tom1200 said:With that said my opinion remains the same; keep this for the local competitors. SCCA seems to focus on National level folks with these types of classes.
That's sort of the way the autocross program is built, though: nearly everything is a template designed to work at the national level, but allowing local regions to modify to suit their population. There are all sorts of region-only classes and (with the exception of safety) modifications to the rulebook.
Unfortunately, neither choice of car gets me excited here...the NC Miata leaves me cold, and my Mustang experience in SSP-spec chase cars was more hair-raising than I want to repeat!
In reply to Tom1200 :
mistakes happen. and to your point, a lot of national level folks had input on this
JG Pasterjak said:
and the earlier S197 (2005-’09) Ford Mustang GT.
camopaint0707 said:In reply to Tom1200 :
mistakes happen. and to your point, a lot of national level folks had input on this
Ironically we are looking at Miatas and the way would use it fit club spec.
I've just watched various classes (Solo and Club Racing) get completely out of control once they go National.
yay! More classes!
Tom1200 said:camopaint0707 said:In reply to dps214 :
He literally didn't read a thing.
Yeah................. I'm a complete Fkin idiot this morning...............this is what I get for glancing at a topic on my phone.
Note I deleted my posts.
With that said my opinion remains the same; keep this for the local competitors. SCCA seems to focus on National level folks with these types of classes.
I don't disagree but we're already past that point. Autocross spec classes don't really appeal to local competitors. How many local only SSC drivers do you know? Personally I can think of maybe one across multiple regions I've run with in the last few years. The local/novice friendly solution would have been to allow oil coolers and brake upgrades in street class. But apparently it's easier to pull multiple new classes out of nowhere than to improve one that already exists. Oil coolers might get a bit dicey but it's super easy to write a brake allowance that's not a performance advantage for autocross.
In reply to dps214 :
Going from memory this was billed as classes where one could drive the car around daily, Autocross and Time Trial it.
My concern would be that all of a sudden one needs custom valved shocks and professionally built engines.
So I went and read the rules..................and as I posted in the club spec thread I have to say I am disappointed.
There are something like 75,000 autocrosses entries per year and only 1300 of them run at Nationals.
I joined the SCCA in 1989 and it's brought so much joy to my life but the folks at the national office need to get out of their bubble.............the first year I was with SCCA one of the folks at national talked about what a great deal something was and I remember thinking "what universe do you live in".
I don't consider $4300 suspension as something inexpensive for a local competitor. You can by $1600 worth of stuff from someone like FM to upgrade your NC suspension...........why not something at that level? They do this every time. I like the cars they picked but why not a basic package?
I think the concept is great but they don't seem to understand local competitors..........at all.
Tom1200 said:In reply to dps214 :
Going from memory this was billed as classes where one could drive the car around daily, Autocross and Time Trial it.
My concern would be that all of a sudden one needs custom valved shocks and professionally built engines.
I mean.... that's what I've been doing since 2012. Not sure we needed new classes to do what is already being done. But SCCA gonna SCCA. TYFYI.
Street class is insanely popular everywhere.
SSC has shown to be very popular at national events.
DPS is calling for wholesale changes to allowances in Street. Tom is claiming the SCCA doesn't understand/cater to local drivers...
LOL, wut!?
Nobody doing locals only is going to flat out go and buy a random car to build it to a spec, come on. This is for those who have taken those next steps, run nationals, but want a more "turn key" build for competition in a stable class. Same car, same tires, same shocks, same setups... minimal variables to stack yourself up driver vs driver.
THATS what this is for. Street class exists for local randoms who don't want to tinker. X and CAM exist for those who want all the tinker. I'd say the SCCA DOES have their pulse on what is wanted and is trying to avoid rules creep for proven successful "Street" formula.
Extra classes aren't ideal, but GOOD classes are. Time will tell if these are actually popular, but if SSC is any indication then they should be.
In reply to ztnedman1 :
To be clear I think the concept is great and as you've pointed out SSC is popular so these likely will be as well.
My about SCCA not understanding locals is the budget...........they just don't understand local budgets. Those local people are the backbone of autocross................without them you wouldn't have a program.
Like I said, why not a $1600-$2000 suspension package instead of the $4300 suspension package? How does a more expensive package benefit national level competitors? It doesn't but it does harm people running on a local budget. These are spec classes so what possible harm could it cause by going with a cheaper package.
It's purely a case of people wanting to run nationals are far more willing to spend more..........and so that becomes the norm.
Again I applaud the concept but just once I wished they'd be more realistic about what local folks have to spend....that's all.
Note this doesn't effect me because I will continue to run in F-mod.
The reason they specified Penskes (I'm assuming it's Penske) is because that's what Mazda Motorsports is using these days. The old cheap Bilsteins in the original Spec Miata weren't up to the task, so they did a development program and came up with a race-quality shock.
I would prefer they used the FM Fox as well, as back to back comparisons have shown them to be equal or even slightly better on track and far more streetable. But Mazda will go with what they have on the shelf, and that's Penske.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
I'm just trying to drum up more business for you. LOL
Tom1200 said:In reply to ztnedman1 :
To be clear I think the concept is great and as you've pointed out SSC is popular so these likely will be as well.
My about SCCA not understanding locals is the budget...........they just don't understand local budgets. Those local people are the backbone of autocross................without them you wouldn't have a program.
Like I said, why not a $1600-$2000 suspension package instead of the $4300 suspension package? How does a more expensive package benefit national level competitors? It doesn't but it does harm people running on a local budget. These are spec classes so what possible harm could it cause by going with a cheaper package.
It's purely a case of people wanting to run nationals are far more willing to spend more..........and so that becomes the norm.
Again I applaud the concept but just once I wished they'd be more realistic about what local folks have to spend....that's all.
Note this doesn't effect me because I will continue to run in F-mod.
I think if people want to compete 'cheaply' there are other autocross specific classes. This just seems like kind of a catch-all class that can compete anywhere in multiple disciplines. Instead of having an autocross car, track car, club racing car, you could have sort of all-in-one.
In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :
In the late 90s I had a Showroom Stock C Miata that I used road race, autocross and rallycross. I love the concept.
I am a purchasing guy so I get partnerships and Mazda is a very valuable partner but how does one justify asking your members to party nearly 3 times the price for an equivalent suspensions set up?
As a purchasing guy I have an issue with this. This is not the a criticism but again how does SCCA justify this to those members?
There may well be a justification; things like support and a reliable parts supply........at the moment I personally don't see it. It's a bit cynical on my part but I just see it as being out of touch with your members.
I'll happily be proven wrong.
Tom1200 said:In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :
In the late 90s I had a Showroom Stock C Miata that I used road race, autocross and rallycross. I love the concept.
I am a purchasing guy so I get partnerships and Mazda is a very valuable partner but how does one justify asking your members to party nearly 3 times the price for an equivalent suspensions set up?
As a purchasing guy I have an issue with this. This is not the a criticism but again how does SCCA justify this to those members?
There may well be a justification; things like support and a reliable parts supply........at the moment I personally don't see it. It's a bit cynical on my part but I just see it as being out of touch with your members.
I'll happily be proven wrong.
I mostly think its about compatibility with the new Spec MX5 class. If you wanted to do autocross --> track days --> club racing, you'd have to upgrade/change the shocks to go club racing.
In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :
If they are trying to keep it upgradeable to Spec MX5 it makes sense from that standpoint.
Tom1200 said:In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :
If they are trying to keep it upgradeable to Spec MX5 it makes sense from that standpoint.
It's not just that. If you're creating a spec series with spec suspension, you need to guarantee parts availability to any racer who wants to buy them whenever they need them. That takes money, and it takes special contracts with the manufacturer. If you spec some random cheap aftermarket shocks and they go out of stock that's not just an inconvenience to a racer who has a blown shock -- he's not racing again until those parts become available. The Penske shocks are already set up with a program like that because it's used for Spec MX5 and it's far, far easier to just extend that program to cover another class than to duplicate it.
I'm also not sure where the $4300 number comes from, looking at the Mazda Motorsports site and totalling up the prices on the Spec MX5 bits I get $3850.
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