mtn
MegaDork
9/9/19 11:28 a.m.
We bought a brand new 2017 Kia Sedona in June 2018. We looked and test drove everything except for the Nissan, which was the only one that seemed to have more than a few negative reviews. We also looked at used vans of all makes.
My opinions:
- Dodge and Chrysler GCV/T&C are probably the best value in a new vehicle you can buy today. If you look hard enough and are willing to travel somewhat, you can find a brand new Caravan for less than $20k. Stow'n'go is amazing and worth it. On the used market, I was a lot less impressed with how they've held up than the Oddity and Sedona. However, this was more just a feel of "how nice is this to be in" since it is first and foremost a daily driver for my wife, this was a very important point.
- Chrysler Pacifica: YES for the hybrid, "meh" for the regular. It is fine, still has stow'n'go, but when we looked they were brand new and not discounting at all
- Honda: It is nice and there is nothing wrong with it, but the road noise was unacceptable compared to the Yota and the Kia. Honda tax meant that used ones were priced very silly. For transmissions, make sure you get an 05+ when they got Ridgeline transmissions. Also, be sure to use the parking brake if parking on a hill - probably true for all minivans if not all auto transmissions. Full disclosure, I come from a family of Honda minivans. We had one growing up, my aunt is on her 4th (typically will put on about 250k miles before replacing), my cousin had 2 before getting out of minivans... I had high expectations that we would end up in a Honda.
- Toyota: Honestly wasn't impressed with their quality. My wife comes from a Toyota family, and my family has had Toyota trucks, and I drive a Lexus GS. Somehow it feels like the Sienna is just not holding the candle like it should. Also, the Toyota tax on the used ones was a problem.
- Kia: We ended up with this for a reason. First, they discount like crazy on new ones. We got a loaded one, nicest vehicle I've ever owned, and it was marked down $10k off of MSRP. The current generation hasn't depreciated much, which is a big part of why we went new. I also told my wife that she can expect an upgrade in 10 years. It was by far the nicest interior. Slide'n'stow seats make it second only to the Mopar options in terms of storage.
Frankly, if I was going used and only used, I wouldn't look farther than your nearest Dodge dealer. If it wasn't going to be a place my wife would spend significant amounts of time, we would have probably ended up with a Caravan. They're just so much utility for so little money, the things that I didn't like are all more or less superficial and lack of luxury.
On the Stow N Go thing...I've said it before in minivan threads. Its' value is purely dependent on how often you'd actually use it. I'm not a woodworking kinda guy, so I have never had a need to haul a sheet of plywood. I presume it can haul one, but I've never tried. We have used the Sedona to move a few times, as well as pick up furniture several times and it can swallow an amazing amount of stuff. Removing the middle seats is awful easy, and they're far more comfortable than the ones in the Caravan. In 12 years, I've never once actually had a true need for Stow N Go and I could count on one hand the number of times it would have been a "nice to have". So for us, it's a non-factor. You'd have to decide if it's a feature you'd use, how important it is to you and your overall opinion of different vans.
We fold the third row all the time, in fact our normal seating arrangement is to have the 2/3 side folded down. That process is pretty much the same for all vans that I know of, it folds flat into the floor.
Ultimately I'd test drive them and see which one you like best. We had a brand spanking new 2019 Dodge Grand Caravan as a rental car a few months ago. We were literally the second people to use it, and it had less than 200 miles when we first got it. We had it for 5 days and drove it all around the Denver area. While I didn't hate it, I didn't find it any more impressive than my 9 year old Sedona with 110k miles on it. I definitely didn't care for the transmission, it literally shuddered when put in reverse and given light throttle.
If your primary concerns are low purchase price and high reliability, Toyota made the Sienna with the 1AR-FE 2.7 4-cyl and 6-sp auto in 2011 and 2012. Around here they run $2K-$3K less than a comparable V6.
My wife has the same powertrain in her 2015 Venza. It's a little slow off the line, but it's fine once rolling. The trans is really good about keeping the engine on the cam when you step down. And with the 4-cyl in an engine bay designed for the 2GR-FE V6, it looks like there's tons of room to wrench on it if I ever need to.
Disclaimer: I DD a 1.6 Miata, so my concept of "slow" may differ from yours.
I have a 2013 Toyota Sienna. I bought it as a lease turn in at about 3 years old and 30K miles. I got the van for $23K vs. a new price of around $33 to 35k. Leather seats helped with the abuse due to kids, but the seat did have car seat marks in them.
Now.. MTN's comments are dead on with the toyota. The build quality isn't 1987 truck or 1995 camry... Engine noise is excessive and the trans isn't smooth.
I know have 65K miles on it and have had the following items go bad on the van:
1: A wheel bearing went bad at 40K miles... Fixed under warranty
2: The rear A/C died.. Pin hole leak due to rust.. Assume it's a MN thing...
Beyond that.. She is rock solid. Always starts. Has good power. Seems to get not great MPG's compared to the honda. The honda's engine and trans were more refined.. much more than the toyota. like.. soooooo much more.. but the used sales guy didn't want to deal and the toyota guy did... so.... here we are.
Vigo
MegaDork
9/9/19 2:17 p.m.
One thing about stow and go that isn't mentioned much is that even when the seats are up you have a bunch of extra storage in the floor, some of it covered (out of sight out of mind can be really useful depending on what you have in your car that you don't want to attract thieves). I agree the stow n go seats are not as comfortable as others but that's not the only factor. Even when seats can easily be removed, they have to be left somewhere and sometimes that's just as big a factor as anything else. Some people don't have garages and would have to carry seats upstairs and turned sideways funny through doors to get into their house/apt/whatever. I'd say just try to consider all the factors before deciding how useless stow and go is. Even when the seats are up it's not useless.
In our case, we use stow n go all the time.. It's great when you end up accidentally buying a bookshelf because you were near IKEA and already have 3 car seats in the car or something :)
We rented a Pacifica this summer for a week long trip around New England. The stow and go seats were definitely not as comfortable as my Sienna rear seats, it was noted by my rear passengers. Granted, I have the Sienna Limited with the reclining seats with foot rests... they are pretty plush. For short rides it probably doesn't matter much, but for longer rides it was a pretty big difference.
As mentioned, it's really down to your individual needs. The Sienna is my vehicle and is not really a daily kid hauler. We take 1-2 long family trips a year, and for those I'm really glad I have the nice rear seats. I almost always have the 3rd row folded down into the floor. The 2nd row seats are on sliders and can be moved pretty far forward. Set up like that, the rear can swallow an enormous amount of cargo... at least as much as you could fit in the bed of a crew cab pickup. I like the idea of Stow and Go, but in five years I've only needed to remove my 2nd row seats maybe 3 times. Granted, they weigh about 75 metric berkeley tons each, it's not fun to move them around.
My last car before the Sienna was an '09 Avalon, and I would say the build quality is almost identical. The interior design isn't what I would call beautiful, but it is comfortable and functional. The Sienna is a bit noisier on the highway, but that's mostly because it's a 5,000lb hollow box.
What does "LM" in the thread title mean?
ShinnyGroove said:
We rented a Pacifica this summer for a week long trip around New England. The stow and go seats were definitely not as comfortable as my Sienna rear seats, it was noted by my rear passengers. Granted, I have the Sienna Limited with the reclining seats with foot rests... they are pretty plush. For short rides it probably doesn't matter much, but for longer rides it was a pretty big difference.
As mentioned, it's really down to your individual needs. The Sienna is my vehicle and is not really a daily kid hauler. We take 1-2 long family trips a year, and for those I'm really glad I have the nice rear seats. I almost always have the 3rd row folded down into the floor. The 2nd row seats are on sliders and can be moved pretty far forward. Set up like that, the rear can swallow an enormous amount of cargo... at least as much as you could fit in the bed of a crew cab pickup. I like the idea of Stow and Go, but in five years I've only needed to remove my 2nd row seats maybe 3 times. Granted, they weigh about 75 metric berkeley tons each, it's not fun to move them around.
My last car before the Sienna was an '09 Avalon, and I would say the build quality is almost identical. The interior design isn't what I would call beautiful, but it is comfortable and functional. The Sienna is a bit noisier on the highway, but that's mostly because it's a 5,000lb hollow box.
Are those reclining sienna seats with the foot rests as comfortable as they look? I'd love to replace our 06 Sienna with a newer one with those seats, but this thing is just too well built to replace yet. I took over the Sienna 2+ years ago and I just love it. It's built like a tank and is so versatile. I usually have the rear row stored as well and it holds a metric E36 M3 ton of stuff back there. All secure and dry too.
In reply to Vigo :
I’d like to find a GC like I rode in in Italy. Big old manual lever sticking up out of the dash. Not sure if it was five or six speeds but the old gent driving it thought he was in the 1973 Monaco GP.
We need an acronym thread. Thanks!!!
In reply to Mazdax605 :
The recliners are pretty nice for the kids. I’m six feet tall, so to really stretch out I need to move the 2nd row seat all the way back and the front passenger seat all the way forward. I’ve never done it driving around, but I use the van to tow my Miata to the track on a dolly, so I hang out back there in the paddock. It’s pretty great.
I'm a Honda fanboi so I'm going to say Odyssey. You should be able to pick up an early 4th generation (2011-2017) with 100k for around $10k. I've seen well maintained Touring trim models going for that price. I've been hunting for a Odyssey turn into a Champcar racer.....
Honda sells 100k of these things a year so finding one shouldn't be terribly difficult either.
Okay, sorry for falling off the map. I have been getting about 15 minutes a week on a computer, so I have not been able to do much. Here is an interesting tidbit, all of the sub $12k minivans out here have between 80k-120k miles. It might be a 2004, it might be a 2016, but the mileage is almost the same. There seem to be a lot of GC's out here. Utah families get big, so minivans seem to be popular. I have been looking mostly at the GC's, since they are plentiful and seem to be well liked by the board.
Hopefully I will be able to look at a couple next weekend.
Thanks for everybody's help,
Matthew
Over a year ago I was poking around in the sub $20k range looking for a used minivan. I couldn't find one in the condition that I would have liked, so I caved in and bought a new Odyssey EX. I talked myself into wanting the latest safety features for my family. Surprisingly I don't regret it, it's a much nicer vehicle than I expected it would be. It's fantastic on a cross country trip, handles well at low speeds, and the engine sounds so good I'm convinced that it has to be making "vroom vroom" noises through the speakers.
As far as used goes in the price range you're looking the GC definitely seems like the best value.
Thanks for everyone's help. I ended up getting a 2014 Grand Caravan SXT with 80,000 miles. It has a couple little dings in the bumper plastic/trim, and some bubbles forming on the leading edge of the hood, but the underside is totally clean outseide of some fresh oil on the tranny (not enough to drip) that should be checked out this Friday. I got it at a little dealer for $7200 after tax and so far have swapped the bald tires with Blizzaks. I went with WS90 since they were in stock and are supposed to last a little longer. The Bridgestone website shows the WS80 as having a little more grip, if anyone is trying to get sale prices on higher performance.
Matthew
