LMH vs LMDh... the way forward.

So now that we've seen a weekend of LMH one race and LMDh the other- these classes are converging to race together this season.  I had not been following the rules much, but just watched an interesting video that describes the difference between the cars.

Basically- LMH- manufacturer makes everything, LMDh- one hybrid/gearbox for all, 4 different chassis choices, and manuf engine.  Clearly, the LMDh is cheaper overall, and there are a ton of them running as GTP, even thought it's totally new this year.  It will be interesting to see how the two different cars are equalized in the same driving class.

But given the numbers at Sebring- prototype racing looks to be super strong for a while.

BTW, just looked up the pole times- 

The WEC LMH P1 was 1:45.0

The IMSA GTP (aka LMDh) was 1:45.8  that would be 4th for the 1000 mile race.

But the whole GTP field would have been right in the upper middle of the qualifying pack.

The winners:

LMH Toyota fastest lap 1:48.38

GPT Caddy fastest 1:48.41

Since the races are so different, the average speeds are not comparable.

I wonder if anyone else will do a rigorous comparison of the two classes.  For now, they sure look REALLY close already- and this is IMSA's first real look at the cars, whereas Toyota had one for a while.

Cadillac ran a car in the WEC race and finished fourth.

There are aero differences between the two classes, LMH has higher down force than the GTP cars.

Aaron_King said:

There are aero differences between the two classes, LMH has higher down force than the GTP cars.

That would imply that the LMDh cars at LeMans would have higher downforce than what we see at GTP.  From what I see, they are going to compete head to head in the highest class.  

But I'm not really sure the actual difference- the time difference between the Caddilac that ran in the WEC is ever so slightly slower than that ran with IMSA.  

From what I have seen, the intention is to have the two cars race each other for the overall win.

racerfink said:

Cadillac ran a car in the WEC race and finished fourth.

Thanks for that- their fastest lap of the race was 1:46.6 whereas the same car that won the 12 hour's fastest race was 1:48.4.  Which would suggest they are pretty much the exact same car.

Are LMH cars running spec tires or do they get their own developed Michelins?  

In reply to jmabarone :

Looks like they all use the same tire.  One of the challenges for the various cars is that some are AWD with their electric part driving the front tires, and others are just RWD.  That was a discussion for part of the 1000 mile I was watching.

In reply to alfadriver :

When a GTP car competes in a WEC race there is a blanket BOP, its the same for all the GTP cars, that is applied to the GTP car, I would assume the IMSA car would have to run a different down force package.

In reply to Aaron_King :

Everything I've read is that the GTP are LMDh cars and can run in the WEC as they are.  And noting the lap speeds, it sure seems they are pretty identical.  For some reason, those details don't come up easily, as I've tired to search for comparisons between GTP and LMH, and when I do that, it always comes up as GPT, LMDh, and LMH, as the former two are the same thing other than the name, and the latter two are the cars that run in the same class for the WEC.

LMDh = 4 different base chassis, a specific trans/hyrbid system, and the manuf. engine.  Looking at the cars, they apparenlty look very different even if they are the same chassis.

LMH = manuf do everything- chassis, powertrain, all of it.

But the intention is that they run together at LeMans starting this season.  Actually, they both run IMSA at the same time, too- but there are only announcements for LMH cars running as GTP cars.  And given the timing, it's kind of curious that no LMH cars showed up for Daytona- as it would have been good development racing.

alfadriver said:

But the intention is that they run together at LeMans starting this season.  Actually, they both run IMSA at the same time, too- but there are only announcements for LMH cars running as GTP cars.  And given the timing, it's kind of curious that no LMH cars showed up for Daytona- as it would have been good development racing.

Did you mean LMDh cars running as GTP cars? I've not heard of any LMH cars showing up in IMSA. These new classes are probably hell for dyslexics.

I thought they'd be running together at Sebring since WEC has been there the last couple of years. 

I didn't watch the 12H, but LMDh cars still had teething issues at Daytona, that's probably why Le Mans will be their first joint race. Teams JDC Miller and Proton were supposed to run Porsche 963s but supply chain issues prevented that.

In reply to j_tso :

More specifically, GTP cars ARE LMDh and LMH cars.  IMSA and the FIA worked to make sure the rules were the same.  The one video I saw suggested that Peugeot and Glickenhouse have both said they will bring a LMH car to GTP- but that hasn't happened yet.

And there was an LMDh car that ran the 1000 mile of Sebring. Did pretty well.

Noting the peak times, the two different cars are pretty darned close together already.  As for the 963, if Porsche can get their system together (as well as the common supplier)- one wonders if they will make a car many teams can afford and race quickly.  Just like the 956/962 pair.

A better question, to me, is when will the 24 at Daytona and the 12 hour Sebring be put back on the WEC calendar?  I appreciate the 1000 mile, but.....  

(and on that note, IMSA has issues compared to the WEC in the US- I was able to watch the entire 1000 mile on Motor Trend, where the 12 hour was on various channels, and sometimes only streaming.  Once NBCSN went down, IMSA (and Indycar) needed to quickly change plans)

I thought I read somewhere that LMH had a rule that the car could produce XX amount of downforce however that may be and that's how we got the wingless Peugeot? 

Glickenhaus has made an attempt to get it's car approved to run in GTP; however, IMSA has denied them entry. 

I enjoyed having both races there. It would have been cooler to have both series running together on the same day. Two endurance races in a weekend makes for a long weekend. 

Porsche also ran the 6 car in the WEC race on Friday so two LMDh were in the race.

In reply to DirtyBird222 :

There could be that rule.  But it would apply to both cars.  And I'm sure the GTP field knows that the US tracks are rough enough to now be able to generate all of the downforce via ground effects- the Peugeot really struggled at Sebring.

DirtyBird222 said:

I thought I read somewhere that LMH had a rule that the car could produce XX amount of downforce however that may be and that's how we got the wingless Peugeot? 

Glickenhaus has made an attempt to get it's car approved to run in GTP; however, IMSA has denied them entry. 

I enjoyed having both races there. It would have been cooler to have both series running together on the same day. Two endurance races in a weekend makes for a long weekend. 

 

Yep, there's a max downforce limit in both LMH and LMDh. It's supposed to reduce development costs and allow more design freedom for corporate branding. However, combined with the power reduction Toyota's drivers have said it's now harder to pass LMP2 and GT cars in the corners.

I think IMSA has a manufacturer fee to compete in GTP and Glickenhaus does not qualify. He's been vocal about his disappointment on social media.

For a couple years IMSA and WEC raced on the same day at COTA. 3H of IMSA followed by 6H of WEC made for a long day, but as a sports car fan was friggin awesome.

In reply to j_tso :

That seems a bit counterintuitive to me. You have a US based team running in a sister series with a car that is compliant to the new rules and you're going to deny them entry. Granted they had a really poor showing at Sebring, more entrants in the top class of the series should always be welcome. 

DirtyBird222 said:

In reply to j_tso :

That seems a bit counterintuitive to me. You have a US based team running in a sister series with a car that is compliant to the new rules and you're going to deny them entry. Granted they had a really poor showing at Sebring, more entrants in the top class of the series should always be welcome. 

Yeah, that rule seems a bit dumb when you consider it is for the prototype class.  It is a hold over after the BMW GTR came over and smoked the ALMS GT field.  

j_tso said:

DirtyBird222 said:

I thought I read somewhere that LMH had a rule that the car could produce XX amount of downforce however that may be and that's how we got the wingless Peugeot? 

Glickenhaus has made an attempt to get it's car approved to run in GTP; however, IMSA has denied them entry. 

I enjoyed having both races there. It would have been cooler to have both series running together on the same day. Two endurance races in a weekend makes for a long weekend. 

 

Yep, there's a max downforce limit in both LMH and LMDh. It's supposed to reduce development costs and allow more design freedom for corporate branding. However, combined with the power reduction Toyota's drivers have said it's now harder to pass LMP2 and GT cars in the corners.

I think IMSA has a manufacturer fee to compete in GTP and Glickenhaus does not qualify. He's been vocal about his disappointment on social media.

For a couple years IMSA and WEC raced on the same day at COTA. 3H of IMSA followed by 6H of WEC made for a long day, but as a sports car fan was friggin awesome.

Imsa has the fee plus a rule stating manufacturers competing in imsa must produce atleast 2500 street cars a year which they don't remotely close to meeting. Plus the car is slow and generally slower then the top lmp2 cars. Toyota could enter imsa if they wished with their hypercar as they already pay the manufacturer fee for Lexus.

MotorsportsGordon said:

j_tso said:

DirtyBird222 said:

I thought I read somewhere that LMH had a rule that the car could produce XX amount of downforce however that may be and that's how we got the wingless Peugeot? 

Glickenhaus has made an attempt to get it's car approved to run in GTP; however, IMSA has denied them entry. 

I enjoyed having both races there. It would have been cooler to have both series running together on the same day. Two endurance races in a weekend makes for a long weekend. 

 

Yep, there's a max downforce limit in both LMH and LMDh. It's supposed to reduce development costs and allow more design freedom for corporate branding. However, combined with the power reduction Toyota's drivers have said it's now harder to pass LMP2 and GT cars in the corners.

I think IMSA has a manufacturer fee to compete in GTP and Glickenhaus does not qualify. He's been vocal about his disappointment on social media.

For a couple years IMSA and WEC raced on the same day at COTA. 3H of IMSA followed by 6H of WEC made for a long day, but as a sports car fan was friggin awesome.

Imsa has the fee plus a rule stating manufacturers competing in imsa must produce atleast 2500 street cars a year which they don't remotely close to meeting. Plus the car is slow and generally slower then the top lmp2 cars. Toyota could enter imsa if they wished with their hypercar as they already pay the manufacturer fee for Lexus.

That seems like a very pointed rule to keep the boutique manufacturers out. I could see a homologation rule for GT cars but for prototypes, its lame. Especially when the hybrid system is a spec system to you know...keep costs down. Seems like someone was in an echo chamber when they came up with some of these rules. 

DirtyBird222 said:

That seems like a very pointed rule to keep the boutique manufacturers out. I could see a homologation rule for GT cars but for prototypes, its lame. Especially when the hybrid system is a spec system to you know...keep costs down. Seems like someone was in an echo chamber when they came up with some of these rules. 

It's almost like the manufacturers have lobbied to ensure it is only their playing field.  Keep those little guys out of there.  

jmabarone said:

DirtyBird222 said:

That seems like a very pointed rule to keep the boutique manufacturers out. I could see a homologation rule for GT cars but for prototypes, its lame. Especially when the hybrid system is a spec system to you know...keep costs down. Seems like someone was in an echo chamber when they came up with some of these rules. 

It's almost like the manufacturers have lobbied to ensure it is only their playing field.  Keep those little guys out of there.  

At the same time, will the name Glickenhaus bring any fans?  Does anyone know who they are? They are smaller than even most boutique makers.  

Then again, with their performance, it's not really a threat to do anything.  

alfadriver said:

 

At the same time, will the name Glickenhaus bring any fans?  Does anyone know who they are? They are smaller than even most boutique makers.  

Then again, with their performance, it's not really a threat to do anything.  

agree 100%

In reply to alfadriver :

They did come in third at Le Mans last year, the not testing since Monza last season bit them in the butt at Sebring.  I love the look and sound of the car, its very 60's Ferrari Le Mans car to me, but they just don't have the budget for testing that the big teams have.  I have a feeling they would bring eyes to the races, people love an underdog, and Jim is a big personality so there is exposer to be gained from that.  

In reply to Aaron_King :

Yeah, I would think a podium finish at Le Mans would attract more sponsors, but maybe it's the current financial environment.

SCG has a new GT3 car, maybe they see more money there and are diverting resources.