Lower grip, still durable track tire?

Just thinking out loud here. Is there a useful track tire that's more like 400tw that doesnt fall apart or massively overheat on the track or AX course? I'm never really chasing the win in AX or very fast times on track, I just enjoy being out there. Lower grip is much easier on the car in general, but the only tires I know of that won't fall apart under the abuse are 200tw or better, so pretty grippy. I really enjoy running at the limits of a particular tire, I'm just wondering if there is a practical way to lower those limits and perhaps have a tire that would last longer to boot.

Tirerack was impressed with the Sumitomo HTRz III's.... Specs. I bought a set for our stock 128i. Really liked its performance. I was consistently in top 5 of my class against some other BMW 's with mods. No chunking (both my wife and I drove) for the season, predictable breakaway, good turnin. Actually decent in the rain too for a "summer" tire. Did I mention cheap too? 2 thumbs up.

4Msfam wrote: Tirerack was impressed with the Sumitomo HTRz III's.... Specs. I bought a set for our stock 128i. Really liked its performance. I was consistently in top 5 of my class against some other BMW 's with mods. No chunking (both my wife and I drove) for the season, predictable breakaway, good turnin. Actually decent in the rain too for a "summer" tire. Did I mention cheap too? 2 thumbs up.

Yup. I haven't used them in a few years, but I used to run HTRz tires on most of my toys. I had them on my FFR Cobra that I did a lot of autox and several HPDE days on. Those tires wore like iron and stuck pretty well. They got a bit greasy on HPDE, but were still managable. They were dirt cheap to boot.

Thanks for recommending those. It's hard to sort through all of the "performance" options out there. If people aren't actively winning on something nobody seems to talk about it.

what car … what type of tire ?

is this a DD type tire that you want to cross use ? if track only and a light weight car, I highly recommend the Hankook Z214 C71 compound … on my CRX they last 2 plus yrs of 6 - 8 track events a yr with only a slight fall off in lap times

Conti DW?

We ran some BFG Rivals for a 16hr enduro this fall and they held up really well, slid predictably and were reasonably priced. I wouldn't use them if speed was important but you said you didn't really care about that.

We use Rivals on our LeMons cars and they are phenomenal. I didn't mention them because he was looking for something with a higher treadwear rating. But if you'd consider them mazdeuce, I'd take them over the Sumitomo any day.

These are going to go on the V wagon, so pretty much the opposite of light weight and low power.
I'm actually specifically looking for lower grip and longer life with predictable performance than an RS3. I still want to be able to drive on the edge of what the tire can do, but I want that edge to be farther back than it is currently to help preserve brakes and the car in general. If you've seen the Chris Harris video where he puts doughnut spares on the AMG, I want to head in that direction, but not that far. I have friends with Subaru BRZ's and they all say the car on stock tires is brialliant but slower. That's the experiment I want to try. The V comes with Michelin Pilot Sports which are probably grippier than the RS3's but have terrible wear when pushed.

The only way you're going to get a tire with a TW in the 400 range and get it to live on track is to buy new and have it shaved. Any tire with that TW number will have both hard rubber and a deep tread. You can live with the hard rubber since you will just have no grip but the deep tread will heat up, cause the tread to fold over, and then most likely start to chunk. Shaving prevents most of this but it's usually done on performance track tires not on 400 TW street tires.

mazdeuce wrote: The V comes with Michelin Pilot Sports which are probably grippier than the RS3's but have terrible wear when pushed.

I can't imagine any tire lasting on a 3 ton behemoth in competition situations.

So do you want them to last longer or just not get torn to shreds when you push them?

I want to run a lower grip tire that doesn't instantly turn into tiny chunks of rubber as soon as I start turning.
Shaving a 400tw tire is a damn interesting idea.

In reply to mazdeuce:

Yeah, that sounds like a good plan for what you're looking for. What does it cost to have a set of tires shaved?

Nick_Comstock wrote: In reply to mazdeuce: Yeah, that sounds like a good plan for what you're looking for. What does it cost to have a set of tires shaved?

The question is, once you shave a 400TW tire down to a depth where it won't squirm... how much life is really in the tire (in miles)?

Question: would over inflating something designed for the abuse of track days yield the same result? Say you put on a set of Rivals but ran them at 55 psi. Your limits should be lower but still have consistent feel.

Or am I off somewhere in my thinking on this?

p- zero rosso is what I'm running, they fit this bill for me.

ProDarwin wrote:

Nick_Comstock wrote: In reply to mazdeuce: Yeah, that sounds like a good plan for what you're looking for. What does it cost to have a set of tires shaved?

The question is, once you shave a 400TW tire down to a depth where it won't squirm... how much life is really in the tire (in miles)?

Which is why I asked the question. If he wants a tire with less grip that won't chunk under extreme conditions it's likely going to come at the cost of tire life expectancy. Although if they do what he's looking for after shaving them I'm thinking that they'll last a lot longer than a full depth tire that gets destroyed on the first track day. I think no matter how you go about it a V wagon is going to go through consumables quickly if you drive it hard. But if all he's wanting is reduced grip without chunking he's probably going to have to compromise mileage.

Outside shoulder wear is my enemy. Over inflation on a harder tire is a possibility to reduce grip and extend tire life by protecting the shoulder. I'm a little nervous about trying this on track. I'm going to play with my pyrometer this weekend at the track and see what I'm doing temperature wise. So far I've been setting pressures by feel and in an effort to reduce wear.

Tire Rack article on Tire Shaving
The web site says $25 to $35 per tire.

KyAllroad wrote: Question: would over inflating something designed for the abuse of track days yield the same result? Say you put on a set of Rivals but ran them at 55 psi. Your limits should be lower but still have consistent feel. Or am I off somewhere in my thinking on this?

if you start at 55# the pressure will expand as it heats and could reach easily reach 65 - 75 #s … enough to maybe cause a failure

In reply to wbjones:

That's why the inflation pressure is stated as cold, if it's rated to handle 55 psi cold, it will handle whatever pressure it hits hot.

Kenny_McCormic wrote: In reply to wbjones: That's why the inflation pressure is stated as cold, if it's rated to handle 55 psi cold, it will handle whatever pressure it hits hot.

I'm not sure that I'd rely on that. Tires used on the street will never generate the kind of temperatures that they will if used on track. I wouldn't assume that you could max inflate a street tire and safely use it on track. Although they would probably slide you off track before they blew up.

I've got some heat cycled out rs3s I can sell you in the spring. I estimate that at their current amount of heat cycling they will last longer than whatever car you bolt them on to. They're so toast its funny.

I wonder how well a used set of H (or maybe V) rated whatevers worn down to 3-4/32s would survive.