Luxobarge Query: Supercharged 3800 Buick Version

In searching for a vehicle to replace the newly-sold Blazer and take over for the decidedly non-winter-friendly DeLorean as my daily driver, one listing has continually popped up and been of considerable interest: a 2002 Buick Park Avenue Ultra that supposedly has a head gasket issue.

http://lexington.craigslist.org/cto/5407695103.html

Doing some reading up on these, it seems that in many cases it's NOT the head gasket but instead the LIM gasket that fails and looks a lot like a head gasket failure (similar to how I initially thought that the Blazer's engine had head gasket issues but it was instead the failure of the LIM gasket around one of the coolant passages). It seems like if I'm correct that it would be something that could be fixed reasonably quickly and cheaply, and I'd have a decent car with a more powerful engine than you'd expect that would hopefully have a decent resale value (KBB puts it over $2k). Even better would be if I could talk them down a bit on the price and get it even cheaper.

Thoughts?

If the interior isn't trashed, I say go for it. Worst case senario is that you get it, realize it is the HG and push it out into the street and lose a few hundred dollars.

Definitely go for it. Never seen a 3800 pop a head gasket, it's likely the LIM.

I'll be keeping an eye on these 3.8 barges. My brother needs some wheels and I might be adding these to my search.

Yes, likely to be Lower Intake Manifold gasket but here is another way to to buy 3800's cheap.
Common problem:
About once a week to once a month (depending on miles driven) the car will put on a warning for "low coolant"
There will be zero puddling on the ground
Upon removing the black plastic, decorrative engine cover, things will be very wet around the head gasket area.

The reality is that the 3800 has a plastic coolant elbow that cracks.
It seems to crack in a way that the coolant never leaks out but rather "steams" out when at operating temp.
Replacement elbow is $3 for plastic and $5 for updated metal version (get the metal!)

I will say it is possible that the coolant light that keeps coming on but no leaking coolant leads the owner to believe it is burning the coolant through a bad head gasket.

This is a an easy fix to replace the coolant elbow and here is a tutorial:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX__c6HZuCQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OH8Mx_YKHQ

I actually think a supercharged Park Avenue Ultra is an unusually good car for the money. Reliable, comfy, easy to work on, good mpg for the size, decent upgradability for acceleration, and pretty cheap! 4k for a really nice one, cheaper with issues.

If you need a comfy cruiser thats easy to work on and gets out of its own way and you don't want an old LS400 , an SC Park Avenue is a really good choice.

Looks like the seller also has a white LeSabre of the same vintage in his driveway.
I wonder if this was the replacement vehicle he claims to have bought.
This makes me wonder if he is more knowledgeable about 3800's and if this is possibly more than just a coolant elbow.
Red Camaro 3rd gen in the drive leads me to believe the seller is maybe capable and willing to turn a wrench.

In reply to JohnRW1621:

Wow, good catch there, John. You're like the Sherlock Holmes of craigslist photos.

If you ignore a failing LIM gasket long enough, they will eventually pop a HG. That said, they usually last forever on a can of Blue Devil anyway, so go for it. (Still do the updated metal LIM gaskets and aluminum coolant elbows).

You have a DeLorean as your non-winter daily driver. That is awesome.

Agree with John, talk with the seller before dropping the coin, maybe sound out his experience.

I called and left a message with the seller, we'll see what happens. It was initially listed around a month ago, so hopefully if it does look like it could just be the elbow or LIM gasket they'll be willing to negotiate a bit.

Only slight downer about it is that the SC 3800's are supposed to use Premium gas, but at least it's relatively cheap at the moment!

Oh boy, I used to work on "the wrong side of the train tracks" years ago and I swear I did a lower intake manifold gasket on a 3800 every single day, sometimes multiple a day, only had to do one or two headgaskets though (as mentioned, neglect a lim leak long enough and don't add coolant and pop goes the hg) it's not a hard repair AT ALL some think it's daunting but they really come apart pretty easy and there's plenty of space. That said I mainly only got to fiddle with the naturally aspirated versions so you have an extra hunk of aluminum to deal with. Oh and when you say the sc3800 "supposedly" needs premium, it's a DEFINITELY needs premium. It's not much more per tank and considering the amount of timing it would pull if you ran 87 you will more than likely get better mph (and obviously much safer) with 93

Harvey wrote: You have a DeLorean as your non-winter daily driver. That is awesome. Agree with John, talk with the seller before dropping the coin, maybe sound out his experience.

Not quite- my non-winter 'daily driver' is a 25-year-old racing bicycle outfitted for commuting, but thanks!

Yeah, I'll definitely be talking a fair bit with the seller before buying it- it's usually pretty easy to gauge someone's level of automotive technical expertise even if they're trying hard to hide it. This may be one situation where the fact I'll likely have to roll up in the DeLorean may work to my advantage (most car enthusiasts will want to talk about it) instead of being a disadvantage (most people think they're worth WAAAAY more than they actually are and thus assume I'm rolling in the money).

When they get old, the horn will activate when you turn the steering wheel. Sometimes they will go on in the middle of the night. Don't ask how I know.

If it does, just disconnect the horn.

Only slight downer about it is that the SC 3800's are supposed to use Premium gas,

Uhh, anything old and forced induction NEEDS premium gas. If that's a big deal to you, get the non-supercharged and chock the missing 80 lb-ft (before mods) up to your own cheapness. They'll run on 87 but how many gallons of price difference does it take to pay for one cracked piston ringland? I've taken apart and fixed enough of my own forced induction motors to consider high octane fuel 'cheap' insurance.

Interesting about premium fuel. My 3800s are na.
Note to self: If shopping SC, ask seller if this car requires premium.
If answer is no then suspect the owner has been abusing the car for years and move to another example.

In reply to JohnRW1621:

Mmm good point, play dumb to know who much the owner actually know/cares for his car. FYI, for my car(16gal) in my city gas is $0.27 more a gallon for premium so it's almost $4.50 extra a tank to run premium. Not bad price to pay for the extra power (rather power safely)

Javelin wrote: If you ignore a failing LIM gasket long enough, they will eventually pop a HG.

You can also, as I learned the hard way, trash the main bearings.

The gen2 3800 won several awards and the Gen 3 (04-08) was an evolution of that design making it even better. I'd skip the supercharged cars if you're on a budget. Premium gas (60 cents a gallon more in my area!)and more apt to have issues if the PO was neglectful. These are good solid cars overall.

Supercharged 3800s don't need premium fuel. That's too expensive. they need E85... if you want moar octanes without losing mileage, run a 50/50 mix of E85 and 87 octane.. if you are really lucky, you will have access to a blender pump that let's you choose your preferred ethanol blend: E15, E30, E50, or E85 depending on which button you push..

My 01 GTP did best on E50...

Don't have much input on the mechanical issue this one my have, but I did stay a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Actually, what I came here to say is that my wife had the Pontiac version of this as a DD for a few years. I don't recall what model year it was, it was either '04 or '05 I think, Bonneville SSEi. I have to admit, despite being a luxobarge, it was one of my favorite cars that she ever owned. Seats were amazingly comfortable. The dash was very busy with lots of buttons, etc...but I think it actually worked well and looked good. I loved the look of the car. The 3.8SC has tons of power to hustle the car along just fine. Handling was not bad for a nose heavy FWD barge. At legal and sane speeds, I'd say it was actually pretty good. Pontiac said premium unleaded, and that's what we ran. Sure was thirsty, 18mpg even driving it conservatively.

I had one of those for about two years in 05-06. Purchased with 180k and sold with 220k. Aside from the trans going around 200k right after a filter change it was all basic maintenance.

I was broke and in college and beat on it hard and didnt have much for repairs or mods. I ran premium and could get almost 30mpg highway with effort but usually saw mid-high teens in town with a heavy foot.

I purchased a slightly smaller supercharger pulley as to not require a tune, changed the plugs to a range colder and made a home depot intake.

Ran a low 15 in the 1/4 mile with those mods and would outrun pretty much anything at the stop light until it shifted out of second. Using the power brake method resulted in several embarrassed ricers and fox body guys. The supercharger whine with that intake was hilarious.

LIM isn't too bad. Neither are the elbows. I maintained a NA 3800 from about 130k to 295k and did both of those once. It has been a phenomenal car. After a failed experiment at going to a smaller, more tossable vehicle I am back to looking at something with a 3.8. I am not really looking at SC models because it will be 100% luxobarge commuter/road trip vehicle for me. I am leaning towards a Lucerne, which has a slightly longer wheelbase than the Park Avenue, although even the shorter W body cars are pretty roomy.

NA 3.8 had no trouble crossing southwestern deserts with AC on and just barely staying out of the limiter, ungoverned the Impys would do close to 130 so I don't see the need for SC personally but if you really like torque...

JohnRW1621 wrote: Replacement elbow is $3 for plastic and $5 for updated metal version (get the metal!)

Ugh. Didn't know there was a metal option. Well, next time they fail...

Black plastic, silver metal: