Maybe I should go for a BRZ instead of an STi?

I know I need to go drive both and of course the BRZ is $10k cheaper.

Thoughts? Downfalls? Upgrade potential?

I was partnered up with one for the late passing exercises at our club's last HPDE. IIRC, it has R-comp rubber and a fair bit of aftermarket suspension work on it.

It looked like a lot of fun in the turns, though nothing I couldn't keep up with on (hard working) street tires. Once the track opened up, it was almost silly how I could walk away from it though, and I'm driving a 3100 lb empty car with 255 hp, nothing too exotic.

Take that with some grain of salt however-- though this was in the advanced group, my wife was doing her first HPDE in the novice run group in her 328xi (on all-seasons) and she was entering and leaving the main straight ahead of a brand new Stingray!

It did leave me thinking however, that the bench racers saying it's underpowered might be right.

Driven an STI, on my second FRS. I enjoy the driving experience of the FRS. I find it balanced and easy to drive at 9/10. I have driven a stock version at Homestead and Sebring and I have a blast and the car never gives me a problem. I know it will get me home at the end of the day.

FRS/BRZ outnumber the WRX/STI at the track events I attend, 4x1.

WRX/STI feel much different. Feels like a sedan, higher center of gravity, feels heavier. It has more power and torque, but it isn't the driving experience I was looking for.

Yes the FRS has less power, but you really learn how to preserve your momentum to be fast. Power just makes bad drivers think they are fast. You must learn proper line and technique to drive the FRS fast. It will make you a better driver in the end!

Upgrades for either are limited only by your budget.

You are coming out of a Miata, a track Miata, and a Mustang before that, right?

I can say little about the BRZ that is not a glowing review. However, I suspect that you, like me, will wish it had about 20 more hamsters underneath the hood. And I should really NOT be the one saying this; I am happy in my Miata, was happy in a 318ic, was happy in a SAAB 9-5... I don't need power to be happy, but something about the delivery of the power in the BRZ is just underwhelming.

FWIW, even though I don't think I've had a post about the car on this board where I didn't complain about that, it still is very high on my list of contenders for my next car. It will probably be upset by a used BMW, but that is an unfair comparison.

Drive it and see though. Maybe it doesn't bother you as much as it bothers me.

EDIT: Note that I live in the flattest area known to mankind. If I lived in Appalachia, I'd likely be in a frisbee already.

The BRZ is a dream to drive. The balance and handling are great. People complain about the power but it's reasonably capable in the same way a non-M E30 or E36 is. It's fast if you can drive it fast and it gets a whole lot better with just suspension and fatter tires. The STi is certainly faster but it is also a numb steering AWD boost buggy that never feels like it wants to be turning. The BRZ is the driver's car of the two.

I picked up 15 hp and torque everywhere with a tune!

A tune fixes the hole in the torque curve. We have a lot of them autocrossing with us now and the owners are smiling. I drove one and felt kinda meh about it, but I had just stepped out of my ST-prepped Miata.

maj75 wrote: I picked up 15 hp and torque everywhere with a tune!

I would be extremely interested to drive this vehicle. That might "fix" it.

GPS, I don't disagree, but for something driven on the street 99% of the time, you can't drive it fast, and it feels slow. It is as capable as a non-M, but it doesn't feel as much fun.

how much is a V8 swapped Miata versus the cost

Here we go again. The 2015 WRX/STi are IMO quite a bit more capable than the older models. Subaru has addressed many of the handling complaints of the previous versions. Closer to the BRZ now and the BRZ is very nice. Drive both before you decide.

mtn wrote: EDIT: Note that I live in the flattest area known to mankind. If I lived in Appalachia, I'd likely be in a frisbee already.

And I thought your forum name was an abbreviation for mountain.

If you are sitting on a bar stool and gunning for pole position, the twins are going to lose every time.

If you are sitting in the car day after day doing the mundane things that you need a car to do, then the twins are a great place to spend time; you are always aware that you are driving something special. The STi is just another sedan. The twin's perceived lack of power does not come into play unless you engage in stoplight drag racing.

As for track use, the FRS chassis exceeds my driving skills, so there could be years of fun while we catch up.

mtn wrote:

maj75 wrote: I picked up 15 hp and torque everywhere with a tune!

I would be extremely interested to drive this vehicle. That might "fix" it. GPS, I don't disagree, but for something driven on the street 99% of the time, you can't drive it fast, and it feels slow. It is as capable as a non-M, but it doesn't feel as much fun.

I've never actually driven one on the street. I have driven both around NJMP Thunderbolt and (2013 STi) I would buy the BRZ every time even though it is quite a bit slower than the STi on paper. They weren't directly comparable laps because the STi was running big boost and street tires and launched down straights like a freaking missle, the BRZ was on fatter sticky tires and just went where I pointed it. I much preferred the BRZ. I honestly don't know what tuning is available for these but I bet a final gearing swap to multiply a bit more torque and keep the revs up a little higher would make the little thing leap out of corners (like a 4.10 with 40% lockup did for the E30 325is).

one is a racer's car and the other is a boy racer's car, choose wisely

I'm thinking consumables, even though I won't do it often, would also be MUCH cheaper.

And it seems bolt-ons/tune give it a pretty respectable whp number. E30 weight with another 40-50whp after tuning/parts compared to a stock E30 but with better suspension/brakes? That sounds like a winner.

I need to go drive one. Also the much lower cost means I could get into one sooner. Must go drive this weekend.

z31maniac wrote: with another 40-50whp after tuning/parts

Is this a realistic number? NA motors with a tune, headers, exhaust and intake type bolt-ons usually get something more like 15-20. I'd expect to require cams and headwork to get 50. Not that it wouldn't be awesome if you could - it would just not be really common for a mfg to leave that much potential on the table.

He's saying that after tune and breathing things, it'll make 40-50whp more than an E30.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

z31maniac wrote: with another 40-50whp after tuning/parts

Is this a realistic number? NA motors with a tune, headers, exhaust and intake type bolt-ons usually get something more like 15-20. I'd expect to require cams and headwork to get 50. Not that it wouldn't be awesome if you could - it would just not be really common for a mfg to leave that much potential on the table.

He's saying 40-50 more than an E30

mtn wrote: I don't need power to be happy, but something about the delivery of the power in the BRZ is just underwhelming.

Especially in slower accelerating and lower powered cars, it's not just the physical sensation of the acceleration (or lack there of) that defines how we detect the power delivery. The auditory sensation can also be surprisingly important, and the characteristic lazy Subaru exhaust isn't doing any favors in this regard. I haven't heard a FRS/BRZ with equal length header(s) yet, but wouldn't be surprised if that might improve 'perceived' power delivery as much as, or even more than, the physically detectable acceleration.

Swank Force One wrote: He's saying that after tune and breathing things, it'll make 40-50whp more than an E30.

Doh. I are reading comprehension challenged today.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: He's saying that after tune and breathing things, it'll make 40-50whp more than an E30.

Doh. I are reading comprehension challenged today.

No biggie, but from what I'm reading these engines are really responding well to bolt-ons/tune.

Like in the 30-35whp range, and you can get even more with E85. I wouldn't go E85 unless there was a fuel sensor installed so the computer could seamlessly switch between regular gas and E85 and all the mixes in-between.

190whp, get some weight out of the car, sticky tires, proper suspension...........I suspect it would be quite the beast on the track and in the parking lot.

This is very interesting that they are responding so well to bolt ons and tunes. I need to find someone around here who has done some so I can try it.

If you are shopping for STI I wouldn't go for BRZ at all. I wouldn't even consider it.

It would be like buying in 1994 a 240SX over a Supra or Rx7.

one is a racer's car and the other is a boy racer's car, choose wisely

Which is which? I assume the boy racer is the STI because you couldn't afford it. Around where I live everyone with BRZs and FRS are like 16-20 somethings and everyone with newer STIs are 30+ year old contractors working on the air force base or people like that. There are also 2:1 STI to BRZ at the autocross here.

That and everyone is saying the 2015 STI is their best car ever and that it's better handling than the previous EVO. There is not any way I would pick the BRZ over it.

Chris Harris praises the GT86. Thats strange coming from somebody who is usually very harsh on cars, and has driven all sorts of amazing machines. I have never driven one, but on paper the 86 has my vote. Its the kind of car I always loved. Light, simple, RWD, visceral, fun, tossable, a true driver's car. None of this computer assisted BS.

Driven5 wrote:

mtn wrote: I don't need power to be happy, but something about the delivery of the power in the BRZ is just underwhelming.

Especially in slower accelerating and lower powered cars, it's not just the physical sensation of the acceleration (or lack there of) that defines how we detect the power delivery. The auditory sensation can also be surprisingly important, and the characteristic lazy Subaru exhaust isn't doing any favors in this regard. I haven't heard a FRS/BRZ with equal length header(s) yet, but wouldn't be surprised if that might improve 'perceived' power delivery as much as, or even more than, the physically detectable acceleration.

I can vouch that they sound pretty damn fast with a nice exhaust on them.