Mercedes 450 SL ? Can they be raced?

Keith Tanner said:

What we have learned:

• most of us don't think it would be a good race car. 
• everyone is pulling weight and power numbers out of their butts other than the factory numbers which are awkward for a race car
• mercedes made an SLC rally car 40+ years ago that looked awesome but did not set the rally world on fire
• frenchy is gonna do what he wants anyhow :)

 

It's not my car. I've got my Jag  
  225 DIN is a factory number  which is a decent amount of power for the time.  Remember the difference between Net and Gross horsepower. 
  The weight is about the same as a Jaguar XKE which nobody thought was heavy. 
   Heck maybe it can't be made into a race car. But if they can get a rambler to go fast why is it so hard to think a Mercedes with its fantastic racing history  can't be a fun racer?  

Mazda's got a pretty decent race history, but I wouldn't expect that to mean an MPV would be much of a race car :)

Good power for the time means very little in 2021, especially if you're up against power plants that have been undergoing incremental improvements in the meantime. And nobody's used gross horsepower for a half century :) 3500 lbs isn't terrible by modern standards, although I own six cars significantly lighter than that plus two more that are right about the same - and those two have power delivery at both ends and 31" tires...

Do what you've gotta do. But don't do it (or advise someone to do it) just because this particular car is free. Do it because one of you wants the challenge or just has to be different. If there's no real reason to use this car, what is the reason for using this car?

In reply to Keith Tanner :

We at least agree with the last statement. Free is nice but at a minimum you will have $10,000 in a car before its conforms to racing rules. 
      It does get a pass with regard horsepower.  Vintage racing.  45+ year old cars race against similarly aged cars.  Yes the easy button is a small block Chevy or Ford. Not some low production European car.  Jaguar, Mercedes Benz, BMW all have their challenges and benefits. 
If he's up to the challenge I'd like him to do it. Starting with a free car with a family connection is probably a better place than spending whatever a Camaro  would cost. Add in the cost of a 600 horsepower legal small block etc.  that's a pretty big hurdle 

Perhaps I'm different. But I've never had a pile of money to dump into a race car.  I've always taken the time payment approach where spare funds are used to buy the car, and paycheck by paycheck purchase what's needed. 
     When the next paycheck isn't big enough to buy the next big piece I either put it on the never- never card or save for several paychecks while doing the "free" grunt work like scrapping undercoating off or cleaning parts.  
 I'm probably no different than others in that there are often demands on the paychecks other than race car parts. 

But do you ever look at the end of the project and say "this racecar will cost an extra $x to buy but will be $y less expensive to complete"? I'm not saying your friend should go out and buy a fully prepped front runner, I'm saying that the free purchase price will be a forgotten memory a few paychecks down the road.

If the Camaro "has" to have a 600 hp legal small block, how are you going to come up with an equivalent Mercedes powerplant? Remember, those vintage cars may have been equitable power-wise when they were new, but the engines that have seen constant development are in a different place these days. You'll be starting with almost no knowledge of how to make that engine work and keep it together, the small block Chevy builders know exactly what to do. You can't tell me that a legal Jag six in an XKE is making the same power now as it was a half century ago.

If the family connection is important, that's a reason to use this car. If it's just because it's free, I'd recommend a little bit of spreadsheet work and it may turn out that selling this car and buying something else is the least expensive option in the long term and could even be about the same in the short.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

 Spreadsheets don't give the whole picture. When I got out of the Navy I spent a little time with Senator Pillsbury at a SCCA event.   He asked me what I was planning on doing now.  I told him my plans to save to buy a house on the Lake. 
  He looked at me like I was crazy.  "You're a vet aren't you? Buy one nothing down as soon as you can.   Then proceeded to teach me about the time value of money.  How ownership of an appreciating asset is always better than delay.  Even when you factor in interest costs.  It's worked for me.  
     Race cars rarely appreciate but the principle is the same. The sooner you get one the sooner you can start the learning process that racing requires.  
     I'd rather go out with a mild engine  and go through the required schools and learning process, than show up with that 600 hp fire breather  going through it.  
   Aside from that there is only a brief window when 600 horsepower is required.  In the class 3 I used to race in with the Black Jack spl. Sure the Aston Martin factory showed up with a 400 hp DBR2 for Stirling Moss to drive. ( They we're selling the Aston Martin company to Ford hence the effort).  
      And Steve Kline arrived with 2 spare engines 1 spare transmission and he spent $22,000 (1986 dollars) buying another one when he'd blown up all three and still had a race to go. 
     My point is I finished 2nd to Moss  and ahead of Kline. The Bahama's were a very special circumstance.  Now days  300 -350 hp is plenty in that class. 

Think the big part is just getting one of these old cars into shape for racing   Going through the suspension and getting everything reliable is a bit of a task. Nothing extremely expensive but a lot of work.  72 is a d-jet car so either megasquirt or you can do a carb conversion.  A lot of work ahead so start soon.  Be sure and reinforce your front subframe also.  

So having read all three pages of Pro's Cons & Cons I'll revise what I would do:

Make the car has light as possible without hacking it up, put a roarty exhaust on it and install the cage and other safety bits. Do some vintage races and track days and just have some fun with the car.  The end.

frenchyd said:

I've had a guy who's talked to me a lot about joining my team to go vintage racing.      

spend some money on a driving school first , then have him crew for  a few races..

maybe he likes the idea but not the work it involves

Frenchy, you're just not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying to go buy an expensive car. I am saying to be smart about what you start with. Sinking a bunch of money into a car that turns out to be an expensive, ill-handling slow pig is not a good deal. If you can find another car that is also inexpensive to buy but is better supported, that is a better deal. Like a Mustang or one of its relatives. Less expensive to build, fewer experimental dead ends (very expensive), on track sooner. You're not starting with $0 in the bank here, you're starting with a car that can be turned into cash or turned into a race car. It may be better to do the former.

That's if the goal is vintage racing on a budget. If the goal is to race Grandpa's old car, then race Grandpa's old car. 

The power question is one you brought up in the first post, including the 600 hp number. If power isn't important anymore, cool. That's one problem set aside.

benzbaronDaryn said:

Think the big part is just getting one of these old cars into shape for racing   Going through the suspension and getting everything reliable is a bit of a task. Nothing extremely expensive but a lot of work.  72 is a d-jet car so either megasquirt or you can do a carb conversion.  A lot of work ahead so start soon.  Be sure and reinforce your front subframe also.  

I'm in the dark regarding Mercedes Benz and handling.  I know the lighter the car gets the higher it will raise. Then you can chop off coils until it's closer to the ground. That will stiffen up the suspension. Shocks?  Here's where adjustable shocks come in.   Sway bars are straight forward. Either bend some tubing and bring the result to the spring shop to have them heat treated or  buy the tubular Kit from Speedway engineering.   Pull off the rubber bushings and replace them with aluminum.  They are straight forward to fabricate if you can drill and cut.  
   You are correct that  all suspension needs to be replaced.  It might be cheaper( and lighter )  to replace some factory parts with rod ends and tubing. Again it depends on his fabricating skills. 
    

A sorted 450 should be able to do 130mph.  The cars handle well once sorted, put some 16in rims and tires on them, bigger sway bars, heavy duty springs.  These cars have four wheel discs, independent front and rear suspension.  The brakes won't be up to it.  In the tight stuff you really feel the weight. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Probably a lot less than you think. The grandfather tried unsuccessfully to sell it since he lost his license a long time ago. 
My guess is it would sell for around $2000 or less non- running needs work cars are like that. Maybe worse since  Mercedes Benz parts will be so expensive 

  So how much of a 72 or earlier Mustang or Camaro would $2000 buy?

   What about water pump rebuild kits? Alternators?  The stuff that's likely to be worn out.  I'm assuming Rock Auto or JC Whitney sells those parts  like they do for Jaguars. 
     That or junkyards. Isn't that a common Mercedes engine etc?  Used in sedans etc.  Wheels?  Is the bolt circle Plymouth or Ford?  Or readily available in the aftermarket?   Big BMW fit on Jaguars. Is there something like that?  
      You say use a spread sheet.  That's sound logical advice.  But how will you know what you need until you tear it apart?  ( then it's too late)  plus what about opportunity costs. Finding that bit you need in a junkyard or someone who takes an interest has one.  
       No you can't count on it but  it does happen.  Often enough that it can't be ignored. 
 Ill  handling. I'll take exception to that. 
 A 1955 Ford Thunderbird  is not considered a good handling car. Worse if it's got the big 430 cu in engine in it.   Watch the Battlebird dice with the Jaguars and Lotus at Goodwood.  Or the Studebakers? Door to door with race. Prepped Alfa's and other sports sedans. 
     How about the 1958 Thunderbird ?  OK the exhaust broke off  and he was black flagged but running very well until then. 
    You may be absolutely right. It may turn out to be a ill handling, slow, pig.  But if the interest is great enough all of those can be dealt with. 
 275 cu inches isn't that much smaller than a 289 in a Mustang. And it's Overhead cams.  So rocker arms, pushrods,  and lifters  aren't  hurting it.  
 Not all Mustangs handled that well, most in fact we're secretary's cars. Which exactly describes a 450SL 

 Again if the interest is great enough. Anything can be made fast. 
 

californiamilleghia said:

frenchyd said:

I've had a guy who's talked to me a lot about joining my team to go vintage racing.      

spend some money on a driving school first , then have him crew for  a few races..

maybe he likes the idea but not the work it involves

That may be the most accurate statement made here.  

In reply to benzbaronDaryn :

Amen!   Just because they are commonly driven to the golf club by old men doesn't mean there isn't anything  in its heart.