Miata - learning tool or not ?

I always heard the Miata is supposed teach you how to drive faster. So I got one and built it up for track days using mostly Flyin' Miata bits. Over the last 2 years I have completed 2 track days, both @ limerock with SCDA. I loved the way the car kept up and stayed on people's bumper through the turns but on the straight away I was toast. I couldn't even muster enough power to pass a house wife in her lexus version of the camry. Her instructor told me later on I was the only car he told her to let up on the straights. I was faster in my 2nd track day , taking turns in 4th instead of 3rd. I rode shotgun in a Spec Miata on my first day and we played cat and mouse with a 911, so I know what the car can do (a lot of sliding around from what I could feel) .

So the question is: Am I going about this correctly?

Is it the car:

• its only got a 1.6
• With the low power will I be able to master steering with the rear or learn to use the throttle?
• Does need to be in Spec Miata form (built motor and -200lbs) to be a weapon and just hard charge all day? or do I need a Turbo?

Is it the track?

• Fast track compared to others? I live in NY metro area and LRP is the closest to me.

Is it the braking?

• How do I Improve on my weakness, braking and controlling the car on the front straight?
• Do I need to upgrade the brakes?

Do I just need more track time - Sometimes I believe this may be the issue but lack of time and Money are working against me. My last instructor said I was ready for Intermediate level.

Now do I stay on with the miata or cut my loses and move to the BMW camp? ( E36 325/8 or E46 330).

I think the "teach you how to drive faster" aspect is supposed to be utilized with a mostly stock car on not the greatest tires. The idea being the absence of tons of power and grip will reveal bad habits. You take these skills to a fast car if you want to actually go fast.

Sounds like you really need to ask yourself what you're trying to get out of this. There's nothing to win at a track day, so buying a higher-powered car just to pass more people on the straights seems a little silly (unless that's what you really enjoy - then, fair enough).

If you're trying to develop your driving skills and experience, then starting with a car like the miata, that has good feedback, and is easy to control at the limit (and has relatively low limits, provided you're on street tires) is a good way to go. Personally, I wouldn't consider upgrading until you think that you have really learned everything you can from the miata.

Again, it's all what you want to get out of it.

If you've done 2 track days you're a long way from having found the limits of your car yet. Fix any obvious reliability problems with it (brake fluid, brake pads, perhaps a radiator, stuff like that) and worry about adding power later. Yes, you can throttle-steer with a 1.6 just fine.

Note that adding a turbo to the car will mean a significant amount of ancillary upgrades to make it reliable as a track toy.

At this point, more seat time is far and away the most cost-effective way to drop your lap times.

What has been said already is great advice. Seat time is what you need. Get it autocrossing, trackdays,schools etc however you can just get it. Leave the car as stock as you have it if it is safe a reliable. This will allow your improving skill to show through instead of crutches like better suspension, more power etc... Data acquisition and it's proper use for driver improvement is about the only area to consider spending money that isn't directly safety or reliability related. You can have another more skilled driver set some decent laps in your car and instantly see where and WHY they area faster. Reducing weight is a secondary area AFTER more seat time to consider because it helps with braking, accelerating and handling while stressing components less and less brake and tire wear. It also is free to cheap for the big easy stuff at first and many items removed can be put back on if you choose to sell later on or convert back to more original set up.

You've got a 1.6 liter engine. It's not powerful, many cars will outrun it in the straights. That's just a fact.

The car is an extremely capable car. It will break the tail free at the limit with throttle changes, because that's the nature of being at the edge, just a slight change creates tremendous effects.

The biggest factor limiting any car on the track is the driver. More training, more practice, more general driving. Learn learn learn. Practice practice practice.

Certainly there are better tires and brakes and such. Which can throw you into classes you're non-competitive in. But stock out of the box the Miata is a darn good driving car.

"the car kept up and stayed on people's bumper through the turns but on the straight away I was toast."

So it performed where it mattered on the track. Don't worry about who has the loudest pedal. Trust me it bugs drivers of high horsepower cars to be badgered by miatie in the corners until they're able to blast down the straight just to have them reel them back in before the exit of a technical section.

Miatae are a learning tool because they teach you momentum driving, they're consistent, and don't have any bad handling traits. Nothing bruises egos like not being able to get away from a 1.6L Miata in a 300+hp car. Lime Rock ought to be a pretty good track for your car. There's only so much you can do on tracks that have a lot of room for fast cars to stretch out.

Once you think you've gotten all you can out of your car (and yourself in your car,) an old M3 seems like the next logical progression. Or make a monster Miata.

Edit: Once you think you've hit your car's limit, have the chief instructor at your HPDE take you out for a ride in your car. THEN realize that he/she is only going at 80%, because it's not their car and all. That's always an eye-opening experience.

You're generally ready for intermediate once you know flag etiquette and don't freak out in traffic. That's when instructors are ready to get the hell out of your car. Most HPDE organizations have a few really good instructors. When you see a car with a passenger out in Intermediate or Advanced, that's the guy you want to meet and ask for a ride-along.

Also consider that you have done two track days in TWO YEARS. One a year is not much time to build up your skills. Did you consider autocross if your budget or schedule does not allow more track days? You're still learning to handle the car at its limits but at a lower speed, and although it is only 5 minutes of seat time, you see many more corners per minute in the seat than at a track. Wringing the car out frequently rather than just once a year will help you learn faster overall.

Your Miata is fine for quite a while yet. It's nearly the perfect chassis for track day use, and while you'll never be the straightaway bomber in it that the bigger engine cars are, nothing owns corners quite like the Answer.

If you are tracking it I hope you have a roll bar, for some reason places will approve Miatas using their hard tops for rollover protection..... I'd rather have steel over my head.

You should be fine with good brake pads. The car weighs so little there isn't really a need for bigger brakes.

Tires. What are you running for tires? Huge differences in grip between different tires and if you've hamstrung your car by putting 300+TW all seasons on it thinking that they will last longer on the track you went the wrong way. If you really want to make the "big boys" feel bad, put some spec Miata SM7s on and watch them get flagged over at each straight because you are cornering that much faster.

And don't be this guy.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/b7iUKaPlBl8

I'm not even sure what this thread is about. No one wins or loses at track days. You aren't racing.

Early on in my HPDE career, maybe my 3rd track day, I was feeling pretty good about myself until my friend (one of the instructors that day, who may be reading this) took my car out, never having driven it before, and proceeded to run about 6 seconds a lap faster than I'd managed.

That became my target. If the car could do it, it was just a matter of training myself. In fact, after that track day my hopped up engine blew and I swapped in a stock engine making 100 less hp, and just recently I "upgraded" to an even slower car. It's been like that, I keep handicapping myself with less and less power and my lap times still fall. At some point I'll want to start going the other way but so far I'm all about doing more with less.

Seat time, seat time, seat time. You talk about money and time, but buying a new car takes gobs of both.

RedGT wrote: Also consider that you have done two track days in TWO YEARS.

This. It's more track days than I have done - which is zero - but it's still just a moment in the grand scheme of learning to drive. Do 2 track days a month for a whole season, and then decide if you're learning anything or not.

Track days are not a race against others. You're racing against yourself. Are you winning? If so, then the car still has a lot more to teach you.

You have done two track days, each a year apart and modified the car in between.

I know it might go against the rock-and-roll life image of a race car driver, but the name of the game is consistency. No matter what car you show up in, or how fast it is, it will teach you car control. That is your ONLY goal when on the track. Sadly, as with most skills, you actually have to put an effort into this.

So, leave the damn car alone. If you must spend money go to a driving school. write down the top two things that they told you and focus on them every time you go to the track. When you get to the point where your laps are exactly the same, its time to change the car.

And if you are only going to go once a year, don't bother trying to become a fast track driver, its not enough commitment. Not telling you not to do track days, just go have a good time hooning around and scaring yourself. Safely.

And seriously, do not be the guy in the cartoon video posted above.

https://youtu.be/b7iUKaPlBl8

Is it the car:

• its only got a 1.6 (moot)

• With the low power will I be able to master steering with the rear or learn to use the throttle? (depends on the turn / track and how hard you throw into it. If you are overslowing for a turn a lower power car does not forgive that and you cannot return the car to the edge of adhesion as quickly. In essence, more power can be a handicap because you need not worry about lost momentum as much.)

• Does need to be in Spec Miata form (built motor and -200lbs) to be a weapon and just hard charge all day? or do I need a Turbo? (you NEED none of this. More power will change what the car can do, I would consider moresoe that improving suspensions pay better dividends in making a car a training tool due to increased responsiveness, but it need not be considered required if there are no ill mannerisms in the existing suspension)

Is it the track?

• Fast track compared to others? I live in NY metro area and LRP is the closest to me. (I think this is a significant factor, a lot of LRP is a straight and a Miata will always be frustrated on straights. I think, to truly answer this you need to do a track day at another track. Consider what it is you are looking for from the experience.)

Is it the braking?

• How do I Improve on my weakness, braking and controlling the car on the front straight? (PRACTICE!)

• Do I need to upgrade the brakes? (Why, are they not stopping the car? Are they fading? All non-ABS Miatas lock the fronts very early, so a bias valve is a common mod, but it will not cure a technique problem and might bring up whole new problems if approached wrongly. Search your feelings, are you trying to blame the car for your deficiency in this area? We are all prone to falling into that trap. I dont do track days admittedly, but everything I have seen/read indicates that with good pads (compound) you should be solid)

Do I just need more track time - Sometimes I believe this may be the issue but lack of time and Money are working against me. My last instructor said I was ready for Intermediate level. (I believe someone else indicated that this is more of a "not likely to kill themselves or others" then an indicator of your proficiency in going fast. I have always heard that it was pretty much that way)

Now do I stay on with the miata or cut my loses and move to the BMW camp? ( E36 325/8 or E46 330). (I would stick with it, focus on getting more driving experience. Track days are REALLY spendy, try some auto-x, its a different game with different lessons, but it may prove to be more reachable for you then LRP or further and less expensive. Think about what you want out of it.)

What your best road is depends on your answer to the following question; What are ,you personally, hoping to get out of track days?

Learn technical proficiency? - Stick with it and try different tracks or perhaps branch to auto-x so you have recurring practice. Its hard to learn when you only get to do it once a year. let me put it this way; you wouldnt try to learn a musical instrument that way...

Fast and Fun? - New car is the easy path, you get a car that can cover for your mistakes and lets you get back to your jollies faster. But is that what you really want?

Other? - give an answer and we can try to advise based on it.

I think other cars being faster cars on the straights is just messing with your head and LRP's nature is messing with you in conjunction with other cars having more power. Watch what you use as a measuring stick, its easy to get frustrated comparing apples and oranges, but that doesn't mean you need to go grab yourself an orange when you have a perfectly good apple, unless you just feel too lonely being the only apple in the orange crate. Try to do a trackday with other more similar cars so you have better basis of comparison for yourself. If you did a trackday where you were the only miata with nothing but corvettes it would very quickly make you down on the experience, your car, and yourself.

Another thing to consider is the rubberband effect. When you are coming into and going around a corner you are going slower. The time interval between you and the other car covers less distance. As you exit the corner and build speed, you still may be only .1 seconds off the other car, but the distance between you and them increases proportionally with speed.

Edit: I was able to find the Randy Pobst article that explains this phenomenon much better than myself.

http://www.randypobst.com/index.cfm?template=magazine&mag_id=14924

BEATO wrote: Am I going about this correctly?

No...But luckily the solution is free. I don't know how long it will take to correct, but it's something you can work on in the evenings and over weekends as time allows.

Considering your intentions and limitations, the car is fine. There are few (if any) similarly good 'drivers cars' that require less time and money to operate at a track day, maintain in track worthy condition, and make any incidental repairs on, than a mostly stock Miata.

It's not even about tightening the nut behind the wheel, as that will inevitably come with more experience.

The real problem that you have described, is your own expectations. You're underestimating other drivers based on their sex and/or the type of car they drive, and you're overestimating what it means to be a good/fast driver. I also detect a note of impatience with the whole skill level vs outright speed thing.

The instructor having her slow down on the straights for you, is a compliment...You being the only other novice he felt she was obligated to do so for is another compliment. The fact that somebody is even at a track day means that they're more than likely not just your average everyday lemming of a motorist. On top of that, her 'housewife' car could likely give those BMW's you're dreaming of a run for their money down the straights too.

Learn to respect the drivers around you regardless of whether they're a faster driver in a faster car, slower driver in a faster car, faster driver in a slower car, or slower driver in a slower car. Learn to revel in the hunt through the corners. Learn to make the most of every second out there, even when there is less going on. There is always something you can be working on. If you're stuck in the corners behind a slower car, really focus on braking points, car placement, and perfecting your line. If you've got enough time to think about how slow your car is on the straight, you've got enough time to be think about improvements or adjustments for the upcoming corner(s) instead.

And yes, you're in a Miata...It's one of the best driving slow cars that has ever been made. Once you can accept that it's slow, maybe you can finally learn to embrace its slowness. Not only is slow not bad, slow is good. Slow means that there is a wider margin for error when unintentionally pushing beyond the limit. Anybody can push the pedal to the floor. But ride along with an F1 driver in a Miata and they'll make it do things that would make your head spin...Even though as soon as it hits that straight, it will still be almost as slow compared to 'housewife' cars.

Simply getting a faster car is also going to make it that much more likely for you to be the one having to let off on the straight to let somebody in a slower car pass you. There is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of in doing so, as typically you can even learn from following such drivers...But if you already are concerned about other people letting off for you to pass them, that's scenario probably isn't going to be any better in your mind.

Kenny_McCormic wrote: I think the "teach you how to drive faster" aspect is supposed to be utilized with a mostly stock car on not the greatest tires. The idea being the absence of tons of power and grip will reveal bad habits. You take these skills to a fast car if you want to actually go fast.

I experienced this canyon carving on bikes. I had a friend who bought my old air cooled 80s Yamaha when I upgraded to a Ninja ZX6RR. I had 50% more horsepower, less weight, stickier tires, brakes that could throw me over the handlebars, etc.

He rode more- and the hard tires, less refined suspension and less horsepower meant that he learned how to go fast on a slow bike. I could keep up with him, but my capabilities were so far behind the bikes that I found myself losing ground on corners and "compensating" for my lack of ability by twisting the throttle and playing catch up.

To this day I think that using the money I spent on a faster bike for track days, instruction, or even just more seat time would have made me a quicker rider (even though I could easily pass him on the straights). I got "too much, too soon" and while I could knock out high 10s in the quarter mile I didn't learn to push the bike to the edge, understand the feedback I was getting from the tires, etc.

I'd imagine the same thing would be true on a car. Learning to wring out a Miata at the limits of its ability will likely teach you more about going fast than bringing a gun to a knife fight and being able to pass people on track days.

It doesn't matter what the other drivers are doing, unless they are doing something that is putting everybody else on the track in danger.

One thing I can say for certain: you can carry much more speed through the corners than you think. Even if you think you've found the limit because maybe the rear slid on you, or the front pushed, you are wrong. Its just the closer you get, the more easily the car is upset by small inputs.

You can always be smoother, you can always execute your braking later and trail off more smoothly. You can always time your throttle better. The more you refine these skills, the more you will find that the car will stick where previously it didn't seem possible.

That's because to find the true limit of the car, you need to be controlled and methodical. Its like catching a fly or something. You have to approach it gently, moving at a glacial pace, and then at the right moment, grab it in one smooth motion, or it will fly off. Careful precision is required.

Lets say you are a top level driver, and you are able to consistently find the true and perfect knife's edge balance of "the limit" every single lap. You can still upgrade your tires and start all over again. Tires is probably THE best performance mod you can do for a track day car.

This will also improve your straight away speeds. Think about it. The less you have to use your brakes, the more speed you can carry through corners. The more speed you carry, the better your exit speeds will be. This means you will enter the straights at a faster speed than you're used to. The only pain with this is if you get stuck behind someone then you have to kill all your momentum, and it can be a bit annoying if the track is traffic heavy.

But no, I think you should keep the car. These cars are so easy to maintain, they are so easy to work on, parts are so cheap, they are light on consumables, they are easy to setup and drive... you would be hard pressed to find a better car for the money to do this sort of thing.

Some perspective:

I started doing HPDE events about 20 years ago with a bone-stock E30 318is (135 hp) on 14" all-season tires and OEM brake compounds. It was at least 2-3 seasons before I started upgrading the car ... with 15" summer tires and Hawk Blue pads. Then another 2-3 seasons before the real mods started.

During that time, I had two back-to-back seasons where I went "all in" with 25-30 track days per year. That's when I saw a huge jump in my driving skill.

Only then did I really start modding the car.

Cars like the 318is, 2002ti, MX-5, and Datsun 510 can really teach you how to be fast in the sense that you learn how to maximize corner entry speed and minimize steering/braking inputs. When you finally move up to a "fast" car, you'll be unstoppable.

But you've got to put the time in!

PistolRacer wrote: I'd imagine the same thing would be true on a car. Learning to wring out a Miata at the limits of its ability will likely teach you more about going fast than bringing a gun to a knife fight and being able to pass people on track days.

Going on your bike story, instead of a Miata, I would suggest finding a good running Alfa Spider. Slower, older suspension, and takes a lot more feel to drive well. I personally think all the time I've done in my GTV makes me a whole lot better drive than a Miata- they are super easy to drive in comparison.

Get one of those things going well, and you can drive anything.

The other note- I always tell new people to NOT modify their car for a few seasons of driving. One year on street tires, one year on better ones, and then modify. You learn more on a car that's a little less competent. But that's just me.

My two cents:

I'm on my third summer of HPDE. I have about 40 days of track time in, with good BMW CCA and PCA instructors.

Some times I'm driving a 1979 323i coupe on street tires, so I feel you on the Miata low HP thing.

But it breaks a lot and I'm a slow mechanic, so other times I'm driving a 2013 M3 coupe.

It's fun to have all that horsepower, especially in the lower-skilled groups. But it kind of stunk when I got into intermediate groups, and slower cars driven by better-trained drivers kept pulling away from me in the turns and staying away. But then I eventually got better, and could stick with them through the corners. So it all sorts out in the end.

If you think it's more fun to learn with a higher powered car, and you can afford it (and your instructor is willing to ride with you in it -- some are getting choosy about this point now that street cars come with 500 HP), you will still get the skills figured out. This is your hobby, after all! Choose how you want to do in and have fun.

I guess everybody picks up track skills at their own rate. In my case the first two summers were like climbing a cliff. It wasn't until this summer that I really started feeling it. That was a lot longer than I expected when I first decided to get into it.

I understand getting blasted away on the straits sucks. I run a Malibu and Miata. Wait till it rains though and due to knowing the limits better I am passing everyone in intermediate.

Being patient sucks, but its worth it. Been to about a dozen track weekends over 3 years and still learning to drive slow cars fast.

If you wanted to upgrade a few things, switching to 1.8L front brakes would help a bit, but only if you are getting fade towards the end of the sessions. I'd stay away from big power until you've done 2-3 HPDE's a year for 2-3 years.

As the others have said, good seat time and patience will be the best investment at this point.