Miata too slow? Car build choices..

I'm coming from a f82 M4 and getting to the point in pace that I really should start considering safety equipment. However I don't particularly want to put a half cage in and tank the value of the car. Frankly the cost of the car is holding me back a bit too. Its hard to go looking for tenths when you're afraid of 4 off. So I've been looking for a cheapish HPDE and possibly TT car.

So the candidates so far-

1. Miata- There are a number of cheap ones nearby. Parts are like half what they cost on my m4. Consumables will be cheap. I'm just super worried I'll be bored coming to it from such a fast car. Would prefer a hard top as well. The new SCCA class for the nc is intriguing though. Logical me is telling me I should buy one. Emotional me isn't excited about the car.
2. FRS/BRZ- Surprizingly expensive for the age and mileage on these. I hear they are good, but I've had a subaru before and wasn't impressed with the engine quality. Also a little worried they will be slow. If I could find one for the right price it might be a contender. Lots of classes for these. lightish.
3. 350z- Super cheap. Medium power. Cheapish parts. Downside is it heavy, so consumables will be higher. There is also the 370z, but they are too expensive for what they are. Gridlife apparently just allowed this into club TR with a specific engine, so that is interesting. Apparently they generally aren't well classed though.
4. c5/c6- I've had corvette before and like them. Its a little more expensive, with some of the c6's pushing into 'more than I want to spend' territory once built. Generally more expensive consumable, but at least they don't have 20k engines if I blow something up. Emotional me likes this one, especially for a car occasionally capable of going for a quick joyride.

Anything I'm missing? People who went from a fast car to a miata, was it underwhelming?

FRS. awesome chassis. Subaru engine that tolerates no engine upgrades or abuse. Best enjoyed as a street car.

Go test drive a new ND2 and if you like it try to find a good used one. You can get a club around the mid $20s.

I have a 2023 RS3 which has seen a lot of track time. I just bought a 2019 Miata Club but haven't been able to track it yet (just delivered last week). I may miss the power a little bit but the car is extremely fun to drive and cheap to run. I haven't driven any other Miatas but I do think the NC and ND will feel fast compared to the NA and NB. Most of the fun on the track is being at the limit of grip, not straight line speed.

I will still take the RS3 to the track though. Miata is a street legal track car and the RS3 is a track-ready street car. It'll be fun to push both and learn the differences.

C5/C6 are worth considering, but much more expensive to run.

Personally I think a Miata is much more exciting than a FRS/BRZ or 350z. I haven't driven either, but I have rode in both, and they just don't have the same feel. More track time > less track time, and you can get much more time for your money with a Miata. Other than ND1 trans issues, they should be really reliable as well.

The Miata isn't going to give you the straight line punch you want, but I can't tell you how many times at Hallett I got point-bys after harassing guys through the 2-6 turn section (in either direction since Hallet runs both ways).  And point-bys from guys with 2-4x as much as power. 

If I were to build another track car, this what I would do. To start, NA/NB, then Kswap it. Or NC and 2.5 swap it. Making a turbo reliable on track is just too expensive IMHO. 

1. Get your safety stuff, roll bar, fixed back seats, 6 pt harnesses.
2. Suspension/brake setup.
3. Wheel/tire setup.
4. Get to the point that the power is actually preventing you from increasing your performance.
5. Engine swap. 

Spec E46?

E36 M3.  Seriously.  Find one already built, there are a ton out there.  These are the best track day cars out there, they punch well above their weight.  Lap times are far quicker than you'd expect

This is for sale by a fellow GRMer/actual racing driver

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/cars-sale/fs-e90-bmw-racestreet-car-8750-atl/260422/page1/

It would help to know your budget, experience level, and goals.

Many of the people who say Miatas are boring couldn't drive one anywhere close to competitive Spec Miata lap times.  If you can, there's not much in motorsports that's more exciting.  And if you can't, there's probably not a better place to learn to be faster.  But I also understand that not everyone wants to put that kind of work in, and some people just want to be fast at track days.  Fast car vs. fast driver dilemma.

Oh do I have the solution for you. Want to buy it myself, but dangit if I have yet to win the lotto. Seems like a steal compared to where prices were a few years back: https://rennlist.com/forums/market/1383925

Sell your M4, buy this and don't think it will depreciate much considering you can roll stock.

Are you going to build this yourself or instead looking to buy built?

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

It would help to know your budget, experience level, and goals.

Many of the people who say Miatas are boring couldn't drive one anywhere close to competitive Spec Miata lap times.  If you can, there's not much in motorsports that's more exciting.  And if you can't, there's probably not a better place to learn to be faster.  But I also understand that not everyone wants to put that kind of work in, and some people just want to be fast at track days.  Fast car vs. fast driver dilemma.

Budget- Under 30k built. Ideally under $20k. half the reason is to not end up with a car that is expensive if I hit a wall. Experience couple years of hdpe/autox. Just moving into advanced group now. I feel like the whole 'miatas beat faster cars' thing is a crutch. Yes they do, with much better drivers. I'm not the next Max Verstappen. A low powered car just can be really irritating in traffic. I'm sure everyone is familiar with the guy who parks it in corners and then zooms off. Goals- hpde and TT short term. I'm not becoming a professional race driver. I might lo ok into w2w in a few more years if there is a class cheap enough to run, but I don't have a realistic way to handle a car that needs to be towed. So it has to have plates and get itself to the track.

Olemiss540 said:

Are you going to build this yourself or instead looking to buy built?

Not opposed to either. I'm finding it hard to find a built one that still is registerable since I still need to drive to the track.

I will chime in on this as I’ve done both ends of the spectrum and have stuck with an under powered wonder.

Background:

20 years ago I sold my very fast D-sports racer (now SCCA P2 car); these cars tend to be about 30 seconds a lap faster than a Spec Miata. Note the class lap record I set with the car was within a second of a Roush Trans Am car and the Formula Mazda record.

My Datsun is 35 seconds slower than the D-sports; it does all of 95-100 mph at most tracks. It’s also 5-7 seconds a lap slower than the Spec Miata lap records for most tracks…..words cannot accurately how slow it is down the straights.

The D-sports was cool to drive but expensive to run, the equivalent of $1200 a day for every day it was on track, so $2400 a weekend to run. Given the performance level of the car, it needed much more frequent maintenance. Wrecking it would have been a big financial hit. Given the speed of the car, if you went off you were likely to hit something.

Here is why I do not care about horsepower. 

You have to work so much harder in an under powered car. When I come off track in the Datsun I know I’ve extracted every ounce of speed out of it and this is extremely gratifying.

Unbelievably you have to be 5 times more aggressive in an under powered car; once you turn into a corner if you are not a passenger, you are simply not trying hard enough. As someone who road raced a 125cc GP this has great appeal for me.

I can afford to wad the Datsun up into a ball and walk away from it; there is a lot of freedom in not having to worry damaging the car.

I’ve driven all sorts of Miatas, everything from a bone stock NA to a turbo Exocet; they are glorious fun.

You are running HPDE so how fast the car is meaningless; fun to drive is all that matters.  Yes, you may have to wave a bunch of cars by. If you are an advanced group driver, you should be able 4 wheel drift the car and point people by.

As for time trialing a Miata; there is a reason there are different classes. Winning your class is still winning.

The biggest hurdle for most folks is ego; if you can put that away, it’s surprising how quickly you start having great fun.

Now with that said I do know some drivers who do not care about max attack cornering speed and really do have more fun in something with a lot of power.

My thought is buy a Miata and if you hate it sell it.

theruleslawyer said:

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

It would help to know your budget, experience level, and goals.

Many of the people who say Miatas are boring couldn't drive one anywhere close to competitive Spec Miata lap times.  If you can, there's not much in motorsports that's more exciting.  And if you can't, there's probably not a better place to learn to be faster.  But I also understand that not everyone wants to put that kind of work in, and some people just want to be fast at track days.  Fast car vs. fast driver dilemma.

Budget- Under 30k built. Ideally under $20k. half the reason is to not end up with a car that is expensive if I hit a wall. Experience couple years of hdpe/autox. Just moving into advanced group now. I feel like the whole 'miatas beat faster cars' thing is a crutch. Yes they do, with much better drivers. I'm not the next Max Verstappen. A low powered car just can be really irritating in traffic. I'm sure everyone is familiar with the guy who parks it in corners and then zooms off. Goals- hpde and TT short term. I'm not becoming a professional race driver. I might lo ok into w2w in a few more years if there is a class cheap enough to run, but I don't have a realistic way to handle a car that needs to be towed. So it has to have plates and get itself to the track.

If someone is irritating you, I would the "giving myself space" signal to the guys in the pits and just pull through and get away from them. No point in getting in frustrated and making your experience less fun.

Yes, you aren't going to be the next fast professional race car driver, but the Miata will make you a faster driver, will be much cheaper to run, and easy to swap good parts over to another shell if you put it in the tire wall. 

How much instruction have you had? One of my instructors one time was a semi-pro Porsche GT3 driver, I picked up a ridiculous of time from her just getting a better handle on the brakes in two sessions. 

S197 Mustang
Cheapish to buy, fits big tires, great chassis, penty of power mods available

Tom1200 said:

You are running HPDE so how fast the car is meaningless; fun to drive is all that matters.  Yes, you may have to wave a bunch of cars by. If you are an advanced group driver, you should be able 4 wheel drift the car and point people by.

I'm going to disagree with this a bit here.  Even as an advanced group driver one still has a lot to learn, and it is difficult to focus on learning if you're getting passed 4 or 5 times per lap.  You don't have to be the fastest guy on track, but aiming for a car that will turn a mid-pack lap time will give you better value for your track time.

Based on your description, I'd be looking for C5 Z06's. Tire costs will still be high, but something needs to give. The C6's are "better", but my buddy grenaded the motor in his this year due to oil starvation and has been waiting 6 months for a new $15k motor to arrive. Hard pass for me. 

For me the perfect sweet spot here would be a K-swapped Miata though. 

z31maniac said:

If someone is irritating you, I would the "giving myself space" signal to the guys in the pits and just pull through and get away from them. No point in getting in frustrated and making your experience less fun.

How much instruction have you had? One of my instructors one time was a semi-pro Porsche GT3 driver, I picked up a ridiculous of time from her just getting a better handle on the brakes in two sessions. 

I do pull out now. It'll just happen a lot more if there is more discrepancy in pace. If you're doing that much you can loose a lot of a session waiting for gaps.

I've had a fair amount of instruction. Mostly running with BMWCCA and PCA which have instruction through intermediate in my area. Certainly not a "I got 1 day as a novice" and turned loose. Less than going through an organized race school, but still probably more than the average person in my position gets from what I understand.

FWIW whatever new car I get I fully expect to have to go back to intermediate with it for awhile until I get on pace with it. I'm not a noob. I'm not a pro. I have no delusions of setting lap record pace. I'm concerned about a car that NEEDS me to be a pro driver to be at an acceptable pace for a typical advanced day.

In reply to theruleslawyer :

My first track car was also a 500hp + m4.  I drove it for about a year until I drove my wife's 1.6 miata.  The next day I bought one .  I have never looked back.  I the last 6 years I have bought 2 cayman, 350z, 2 nd Miatas....have sold some but I will never get rid of my na & nd.  There is something fun keeping up with cars double or triple the horsepower.  Good luck

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

Based on your description, I'd be looking for C5 Z06's. Tire costs will still be high, but something needs to give. The C6's are "better", but my buddy grenaded the motor in his this year due to oil starvation and has been waiting 6 months for a new $15k motor to arrive. Hard pass for me. 

Why a new one? used LS motors are relatively cheap. Its actually a plus for the platform vs trying to source a s55 that came in virtually nothing. c5z...I like the idea on paper, but they are close to 10k more than a base z51 c5. That is a lot of mods. Plus the c5z isn't as different as later z06 models. Classing is the main reason why I'd want one. Like you couldn't mount the ls6 manifold, or do a cam or something. None of that matters for hpde. Not sure about TT rules.

Here's a few minutes of me in my 2.0L Toyobaru chasing down Toot in his Miata, both cars have a good number of mods though:

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Tom1200 said:

You are running HPDE so how fast the car is meaningless; fun to drive is all that matters.  Yes, you may have to wave a bunch of cars by. If you are an advanced group driver, you should be able 4 wheel drift the car and point people by.

I'm going to disagree with this a bit here.  Even as an advanced group driver one still has a lot to learn, and it is difficult to focus on learning if you're getting passed 4 or 5 times per lap.  You don't have to be the fastest guy on track, but aiming for a car that will turn a mid-pack lap time will give you better value for your track time.

 

 

Yes but if you are running in a group that only allows passing on straights like PCA it's not an issue.

I run local SCCA time trials and track days which have open passing; the Datsun is slower than most Miatas and I don't find it to be an issue. Yes it does take planning but an advance driver should be able to do this........if not they really shouldn't be in an advanced group in my opinion.

Admittedly after 34 years on track with it I could probably  slide the Datsun round and answer my cell phone.

A lot of folks commenting here are the reason it sucks to drive a low power car in advanced/TT/race. If you *need* the band aid of horsepower to flow with the other cars on track, you're the problem - not the car. And I can gurantee if that's how you're attempting to generate lap time, those around you are probably annoyed with you.

The last club day of the year and I passed about a million P-cars, c8s, etc driven at 5/10ths that are just a complete pain in the ass to share the track w/ even though they're turning "OK" lap times because they're doing it all w/ hp to bandaid the fact that they suck. The fastest car on track was a 190whp K-miata - that, according to the spec vs specs - should've been the slowest car in the group (spoilers, it was a GLTC car which is detuned to 12.5:1 lbs/hp and was running heat cycled street tires).  I was passed exactly once all day, and you can guess which car it was....


Related video, my friend and I were doing some lead-follow, we pretty much stopped moving in 15-23. I passed them into one to force the point right after this (advanced group, open passing)

Tom1200 said:

I run local SCCA time trials and track days which have open passing; the Datsun is slower than most Miatas and I don't find it to be an issue. Yes it does take planning but an advance driver should be able to do this........if not they really shouldn't be in an advanced group in my opinion.

As you say it takes planning.  Planning takes brainpower, and we all have a limited budget for that.  Learning also takes brainpower, and the more of your available budget you spend on "overhead" like passing management, the less you have available for learning.  Each pass takes 10-15 seconds of attention, watching the progress of the guy approaching you, judging where he's going to make the pass, checking to make sure he's not doing something stupid, etc.  Then when it's over you need to reapply your brain to the learning process, get back "into the flow".  Personally I find that any pass means I need at least a couple of corners to get back into the flow, and if that's happening 4-5 times a lap then, well, it never happens.

You seem to think that "advanced group drivers" are mostly finished in their process of skill acquisition and that is quite simply not true.  The bar for the advanced group is the ability to drive safely in an open passing environment, not the ability to turn a lap within half a second of the track record for the chassis.  The vast majority of advanced group drivers still have a lot of room for improvement, and track days are an opportunity to try to make such improvement.  The fewer passes that happen the greater the percentage of time you have available to learn, and the more learning you can get done per dollar spent.

If you've been road racing 30+ years you have probably at least 20 times as much seat time as the average advanced group driver.

You seem to think that "advanced group drivers" are mostly finished in their process of skill acquisition and that is quite simply not true.  The bar for the advanced group is the ability to drive safely in an open passing environment, not the ability to turn a lap within half a second of the track record for the chassis. 

Advanced group drivers should have the ability to pass or be passed anywhere on track safely (within reason of course) and remain aware of how/why another car is where they are. Probably 50%+ of the drivers I encounter in advanced groups shouldn't be there. 

This is exactly why some of the low volume groups I run w/ now run a "race" group and you need w2w race experience or equivalent. Just having been on track for a long time doesn't really tell me anything - I know of many folks that shouldn't be in an advanced group that have been tracking for decades.