Snrub wrote: If you are a fan of vehicle dynamics give a RX-8 a try. Not mid - engined, but the engine is far back, low, light. Reliability is a concern, but it also means you can get a lot of car for the money. If you're considering options that are 15-45 years old it may make sense.
Actually the RX8 is a front-mid engined car, the engine is completely behind the front axle line.
"front-mid engine": A wishful expression created by those who don't have a proper mid-engine car.
kb58 wrote: "front-mid engine": A wishful expression created by those who don't have a proper mid-engine car.
If you want to be an elitist about it, most mid-engined cars are rear-mid engined, very few truly have the engine in the middle. Also consider this: You have two cars with 50/50 weight distribution (including driver) and zero overhanging weight. One is a front-mid and one is a rear-mid layout. The cars are otherwise identical, same overall weight etc. Which one will be faster?
It was lighthearted teasing, but okay: the one with the lower PMOI
kb58 wrote: It was lighthearted teasing, but okay: the one with the lower PMOI
PMOI is the same so they'd be equal 
Parts would have to be shifted around in odd ways to build these two theoretical cars and there would probably be ballast involved, but there would be no difference in performance between them.
sesto elemento wrote:LCubed wrote:Well lucky you! I'd be willing to part with my mr2 spyder's fully sorted turbo (214@wheels) drivetrain. I've got a 2zzge that I'm building for boost and am going with a new turbo setup this time around (rally potato vs disco potato). Hit me up if you're interested, I'm selling it as a turnkey package ( engine, turbo, full exhaust, tuned emanage blue, injectors, everything you need to have a kickass spyder).Stefan (Not Bruce) wrote: Build your own. http://www.midlana.comGiven my Formula SAE background this is an awesome idea. I have thought about doing something similar using miata suspension + passat 1.8T longitudinal driveline in a custom tube-frame chassis, the problem I run into is my own "OCD" with regards to fabrication that I can't attain with my current rental carport and basic tool chest. I'm really leaning towards the MR2 Spyder + turbo
, since they can run the 15x10 6UL wheels and some sticky 245 racing slicks. Later on I would love to build my own midlana like car or prototype replica, think SCCA DSR (now P2), once I have the proper resources.
By the way, I'm in third, rolling on, on 225 section r compound tires in that picture
Your killing me!! Arrg stop posting that.
My mr2 is a blast to drive, but like someone mentioned, a roll bar is required for track use. They are not real cheap or easy to install...
I'm also a former FSAE-er (although I'm starting to realize it was a long time ago now!).
Something I mention whenever someone scoffs about me have a FWD race car (or FWD sports cars in general): you have to look at the overall picture. RWD or mid-engined does not a sports car make. Every chassis has compromises. My Preludes are FWD, but they have have really good double wishbone suspensions and are relatively lightweight. Civics have double wishbones and are even lighter weight. Porsche 911's are rear engined and have macpherson struts. BMW's have macpherson struts and trailing arms. When we build one-off race-only cars, they have no compromises and so they're mid-engined, sit on the ground, and have double wishbone push rod suspensions. No production car has all that. Most mid-engine production cars wind up making a bunch of other compromises, so they wind up not actually being that much faster than other comparable production cars.
Miata is the answer because it's cheap, light, responsive and has huge (and cheap) aftermarket parts availability. Setting up a miata for track is easy. It's a recipe.
But just because it's popular doesn't mean its the only answer. There are a bunch of spec Boxsters that run in WRL races. They're fast and well driven. We've yet to beat them. There was a nicely built Fiero that we used to see at Lemons. Yep. I've lost to a Fiero!
Wow guys! I knew I needed to post this question here to get a broad view of tracking mid-engine cars, thanks a bunch!!
I'm going to keep all this in mind as I focus on getting more seat time in my 944 for now and also try to get some seat time in something mid-engined if the opportunity arises to really get the feel of it and whether or not the various production compromises make or break my desire for a mid engines track car down the road.
In reply to LCubed:
Look at the solutions used in Spec944 for ideas on improving your 944 for the track.
Its a well-known and well-developed chassis and the Spec944 cars routinely compete with the Spec Miata in my area.
http://www.944spec.com/944SPEC/
BA5 wrote: IWhen we build one-off race-only cars, they have no compromises and so they're mid-engined, sit on the ground, and have double wishbone push rod suspensions. No production car has all that. Most mid-engine production cars wind up making a bunch of other compromises, so they wind up not actually being that much faster than other comparable production cars.
Do supercars count? The Gumpert Apollo, Radical RXC and Caparo T1 are mid-engined, have double wishbones with pushrods, and miniscule ground clearance (especially the T1 which won't clear even the most minor speedbump). There are probably others I'm forgetting.
GameboyRMH wrote:BA5 wrote: IWhen we build one-off race-only cars, they have no compromises and so they're mid-engined, sit on the ground, and have double wishbone push rod suspensions. No production car has all that. Most mid-engine production cars wind up making a bunch of other compromises, so they wind up not actually being that much faster than other comparable production cars.Do supercars count? The Gumpert Apollo, Radical RXC and Caparo T1 are mid-engined, have double wishbones with pushrods, and miniscule ground clearance (especially the T1 which won't clear even the most minor speedbump). There are probably others I'm forgetting.
No.
If you go in to Craigslist and search "Boxster S" in LA and surrounding areas. You will find plenty sub-10k cars with the IMS and sub-7k cars that are over 100k miles and probably wont have an IMS issue. Some are some as low as 5k. There's your affordable Porsche track cars.
Do it
In reply to GameboyRMH:
No, I think the thread is specifically aimed at 'every day' mid-engined cars made by the larger main stream manufacturers. Super cars follow the bespoke design route: they are designed purely to be as fast as possible with very few compromises. An MR2? It had to do with sharing parts with corollas and camrys. The prices of each type are reflected accordingly.
1) There are no ff, fm-r, fr, or rr f1 cars. Picture a ff or fr motorcycle lol. No coincidence there.
2) There is something incredibly special about the driving experience of a mr car.
kb58 wrote: "front-mid engine": A wishful expression created by those who don't have a proper mid-engine car.
I agree with this, in that I think the whole "front-mid" expression is more for marketing than anything else.
For example, if the furthest forward point on your front engined car are the heads of the water pump pulley bolts, and the front face of the bolts stick past the front axle centerline by 1mm, do you really think that you can say you've converted your car to a mid engine car (or "front-mid" if you prefer) just by shaving 2mm off the end faces of the bolt heads? I don't think so.
Here is my dilemma when it comes to laying out some cash for a higher end car. Once you get past 8-10K you can start getting into single seat racing cars that will spank 99.9% of the road cars ever made. Once you get 15K my brain is locked into looking for single seaters. Most daily drivers will tow a 900lb car and converting to a sports racer body isn't a huge task.
Now whoever it was who tracked about driving their Corvette to and from with the A/C blowing cool air; I totally get that is does have merit.
What's amazing is that we see guys/gals driving FWD, RWD front & mid engine all turning the same lap times. I go back to all that matters is getting a car you enjoy driving. While I do have a single seater that I really like I have to admit I have the most "fun" in the front engine rear drive Datsun. If I didn't have to do my own wrenching I think I could learn to like a Spec Boxster.
Tom
The problem with single seaters is that you rarely get to run track days, and cheap endurance racing is straight out.
This leaves sprint racing, which can be more expensive than cheap endurance racing with less seat time.
Ultimately, unless you have a place to run it, it's a bit useless to go the single seat route. This is a huge shame since that is one of the best ways to learn about conservation of momentum and racing close without bumping, etc.
Stefan yes open wheel cars are an issue for track days but not all single seaters are open wheel, hence my mention of sports racers.
As an example of SCCA Sports Renualt (spec racer) can be had anywhere from 5-9k. If you are not racing then there are options like fitting a 2.0 liter GTA motor, modifying the 1.7 etc. So for a relatively low price you can have a 1500lb car with between 110-150whp that is very easy on tires.
I've been toying with converting my older F500 into a D-Sport Racer; they are very small cars so mixing it up with big road cars would make many people nervous but not really any smaller that a dwarf or legends car. My reasoning is it allows me more choices of run groups at vintage races. These car can be had for 4-7K and they go pretty well. They are also mid engine.
Truth be told while I love single seat cars, driving on threaded tries is an awful lot of fun. One of the cars with the highest giggle factor I've ever driven on track was an X1/9 on 175mm wide tires. Nice revvy motor & chuckable chassis.
Tom
I think MR2s are Marmite cars - you either love them or are indifferent to them. I tried to love mine but finally ended up selling it and switched to an RX8. First day out with the (then unmodified) RX8 and I was within 1/2s of my best laptime in the MR2. It's all about what speaks to you.
Given a choice and infinite funds, I'd go Lotus Elise. I loved tracking mine in the UK, pity that I couldn't bring that with me. Boxsters don't do much for me (not for lack of trying).
My big concern with MR2s these days is parts. Yes, there were an awful lot of aftermarket parts available for them but these days you'll have to source a lot of the good stuff used as they're NLA and a lot of the cheaper stuff it just plain E36 M3. There are some small companies making decent quality stuff, but for other parts you're either looking at cheap crap or getting expensive parts from Japan. Coilovers for example - discounting the Riceland stuff you're either looking at Tein or Fortune over here, or you have to get something like Silk Road (I think that's what they're called) from Japan. While I like hunting down obscure parts it's nice to call up a well-known supplier and a few weeks later a box full of Öhlins goodness shows up on your doorstep.
Parts on cars that get tracked break, so personally prefer something with a good parts supply in the US (although I've ordered parts for vehicles from the UK and they're here faster than parts from US suppliers - go figure).
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