momentum racers

At what power level does a momentum racer become not a momentum racer, what are the favorite momentum racers around here (other than the answer)

In reply to ryanty22:

I'm can verify an AE86 Corolla qualifies. It teaches you soooo much about driving fast, and even more about driving slow. 112 hp.

I feel like the transition point is around 12 lbs/whp, but it is also dependent on the ability to put that power to the ground, as well as the overall balance between cornering grip and outright power. A FWD car like a Civic is going to need stickier tires and more power to not be a momentum car than, for example, an turbo DSM, which is really good at putting power down early in a corner.

Randy Pobst, in his monthly article in Sports Car, (the SCCA mag.) addressed this a couple of yrs ago.

his contention was that ALL cars are momentum cars … some more so than others …

whether it's a SM or a GT3 Cup car … if you blow a corner and lose your momentum, you are at the mercy of your competitors

you can see this all the time in races, someone is in a tight battle with another car (of equal power/handling …etc) and if they get balked by a slower car, screw up a particular corner… it's easy to see the trailing car taking advantage …. even in cars with huge HP …

his description was between a GT3 Cup car and a Miata … it's easy to see the Miata lose time due to a blown corner, but he pointed out that just because the Cup car has HUGE hp doesn't mean you can just stand on the brakes, yank the wheel, then mat the throttle … if you try that, your competitors will eventually pass you

In reply to wbjones: +1, All cars are momentum cars. Not all drivers are momentum drivers though... the ones that aren't are called "back markers"

In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker:

While I agree completely with you, wbj, and Randy, there is a w/p level at which the gas pedal will cover a lot of mistakes when you are just learning how to drive fast.

In that case, it's wherever you decide you want the line to be.

Instead of power/weight, I'd be more interested in looking at lateral vs longitudinal g capabilities. That's where you have to start altering your driving style. I've spent a considerable amount of time on a certain platform at a wide range of power/weight ratios, and a lot of it comes down to what your cornering capabilities are. Chasing a turbo Exocet with a V8 Miata brings this into very clear focus despite having roughly similar power/weight ratios. Then you throw aero on the Miata and it shifts again...

Hey, Keith, totally O/T, but in your avatar the mudflaps make it look like the Targa car has oni-camber in the rear...

Isn't a momentum car where you drive it flat out all the time? Toyota 4ag powered vehicles certainly fit that definition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNmOVA8KOy0

I think the 122hp Suzuki Esteem I'm about to get would qualify as a momentum car (notice I didn't call it a momentum racer ).

The "all cars are momentum cars" rule is true in terms of winning a race, but I'd agree that around 12lb/hp is where the car no longer feels like it's powered by hamsters and you need to conserve every morsel of momentum or you'll never get it back.

Depends on what you're chasing. If the car in front has 13lb/hp, you're the one driving the point and shoot car

GameboyRMH wrote: The "all cars are momentum cars" rule is true in terms of winning a race, but I'd agree that around 12lb/hp is where the car no longer feels like it's powered by hamsters and you need to conserve every morsel of momentum or you'll never get it back.

the only disagreement I have with that is to point out the HIGH hp cars that lose momentum, for whatever reason, and get freight trained by cars behind them … they have huge power to be able to regain speed, but there's no way to regain lost time to those that didn't lose momentum

but you are right in that cars at that, or greater, hp/weight ratios do feel like they can spin back up

If you go in slow and tight you can rotate the car faster (since you're going slower) and get it pointed straight to power out.... if you have the power and longitudinal grip. The shorter distance traveled can buy back time.

It's the same reason why high-longitudinal grip, high-hp cars (think turbo DSM in autox) can run "straight" lines in autocross courses and come out ahead.

Momentum is a subjective statement. Its somewhat car specific, as you have to use the strengths of the car to its best advantage. But overall I agree with Randy.

Yugo= momentum.

Lada Rally Car - seriously a guy up here had one. 1500 cc of raw Russian powah!

I agree that -all- race cars of momentum racers

NGTD wrote: Lada Rally Car - seriously a guy up here had one. 1500 cc of raw Russian powah!

I'm sticking by my grip vs power concept. High grip/power ratio = momentum racer. Low grip/power ratio = point-and-shoot.

I'd say a momentum car is anything with more chassis than engine. Or even more simply, if you are catching people in the corners and getting passed on the straights, you have a momentum car. Basically what Keith said.

For example, my 89 Supra Turbo with worn out suspension and 330 hp, not a momentum car. My Daewoo with a dialed in suspension, big sticky tires, weight reduction and a bone stock 1.5, definitely a momentum car.

Zomby Woof wrote:

NGTD wrote: Lada Rally Car - seriously a guy up here had one. 1500 cc of raw Russian powah!

Thanks ZW - that's the one. I know the owner. They have given up and moved on to an Eagle Talon.

My P2 race car weighs 1308 w/ me and post-race fuel, has 7" and 9" Hoosier bias slicks, a giant wing and splitter, and about 180hp. When I'm working hard to stay ahead of a less good driver in a more good car, it's totally a momentum car.

I think the last momentum car i had was the black Celica.

The last momentum car i RODE in was an STR-prep NB1 Miata. About 2150lbs and 135whp. I've never had so much fun in my life.

Keith Tanner wrote: I'm sticking by my grip vs power concept. High grip/power ratio = momentum racer. Low grip/power ratio = point-and-shoot.

this.....