Moving to a more dedicated track car, need help with narrowed down selection.

Good day all, I've been hobby racing for a little while and I've been loving my Fiesta ST.  The problem is I love my Fiesta so much that I just want to keep it for the street.

I have two cars I like and I was hoping I could get some input from the experts.

• E46 that has been cleanly modified into a track day car.
  • It has the M54
  • Solid bushings
  • Rear subframe has been reinforced.
  • 1.5 LSD

• Austin Healey Sprite
  • This is a dedicated track car.
  • Bins of parts.
  • Comes with a trailer.

My thoughts:

• Is the Sprite safe on a track with 4000lb ZL1s?
• It's hard to overlook the fact that the Sprite is 1200lbs for consumables.
• I know nothing about old British cars but I could learn.
• The E46 could do small stints on the road which could be handy.
• The E46 would be easy to find parts for.

Thanks for reading and discussing.

By "hobby racing", I'm assuming you mean Track Days / HPDEs correct, and not wheel to wheel racing?  It will completely alter the answers to your questions.  For vintage racing, a Spridget would be a fine entry into the vintage racing world.  You will be classed and on track with cars of similar weight and Hp.  I would personally not want to be on track at an HPDE with modern sports cars in a Spridget.  You will be driving your mirrors and the closing speed will be scary high.  The E46 could be either a track rat, or headed towards a Spec E46 in a couple of different series.  

You couldn't have picked two more different cars as options.  Provide some more background of your track experience, and some goals for the car, and you'll get more specific help.

I'm no expert, but even I know you can't go wrong with an E46.

I'd look at the Sprite if your interests lean towards vintage racing, autox, or if the only tracks you're driving on are pretty tight and twisty.

I've been running HPDE and club racing events for about 25 years now. I'm a "pretty good" driver: multiple class wins, couple of regional championship wins, one national championship win. When I drive cars like the E30 M3 with modern track cars, it's hard to keep up.

Around here, the HPDE ranks are full of R35 Skyline GTRs, Porsche GT3s, Corvettes, and modern M3s. It seems like EVERYONE is on steamroller Hoosiers and fancy coilovers. A vintage roadster, like a Spridget or MGB, just wouldn't be fun. 

As others have said, unless you're specifically planning to go vintage racing, the Sprite isn't going to be much fun at a modern track day.

Even the E46 with an M54 is going to be underpowered compared to the typical HPDE session today, but you'll have a much better chassis, and room for good safety equipment.  When you say 'dedicated' track car, I assume you mean a full cage and the associated safety equipment.

Again, it depends a lot on your goals and intended use.  I would pick the E46 between those two choices, but there are lots of other options out there as well.

E46 has plenty of room for an LS down the road :-)

BMW all day but I am a bit biased. Also a great racing series based around e46 3 series exists in case you get that bug and happen into a million dollars laying around.

I mean I would say I'm biased *against* BMWs if anything, but given these two options I wouldn't even hesitate in choosing the BMW.

I struggle with the concept of a "more dedicated track car".  You can only go so far with a street car in preparing it for track duty before it's bad at both jobs.

So first question- do you have a good tow vehicle and are you ready to start pulling a trailer to the track?

Second question- are you just interested in track days or do you want to do wheel to wheel racing?

I have friends that vintage race bugeye Sprites. They can be pretty quick and they're more fun than a barrel of monkeys. They're pretty easy to fix, which is good because it seems like they're always being fixed. If you just want to turn a bunch of drama-free laps I think something more modern would be a better choice. 

I will chime in as a guy who runs a 80whp Datsun at both vintage races and HPDE.

Sprites are excellent cars and you can get every part on the car brand new from various specialists. The consumable costs are very low. You can even buy used Hoosier vintage race tires from John Berget Racing Tire.

Here is an on track video from a time trial day I did about 6 weeks ago. This is what you can expect in a low powered car. As you will see it's not the you're being strafed by jet fighters some people make it out to be. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biOKu-dNLnw

A Sprite will keep up with a modern car in the corners and depending on how hard your willing to tune the motor they won't be that much slower down the straights. A BMC A-series engine can be tuned to put out 110hp at the wheels. A good Sprite will turn Spec Miata Lap times.

You can do things in a really light car that the BMW never will; the BMW will turn faster lap times all day every day but I personally like light cars.....even when they are underpowered.

As far as safety goes, BMW  compared to to Sprite, I'd think the main thing would be the amount of metal protecting you and relative weight to other cars on track, rather than the speed to "stay out of the way"

If you've been enjoying a Fiesta ST on track then driving a relatively low powered car isn't a new thing.

How often are people running into each other at track days? Maybe I'm in the dark, but my impression is that heavy car-on-car incidents (the kind where the size and weight differential would really come into play) are very rare. And if the OP plans to race, then he'll be running with similar cars anyway, so I don't think the relative size of a sprite to modern machinery should be much of a deterrent. As long as the sprite can handle itself in a self-inflicted incident (good roll protection, seats, harnesses, etc.) then I think it's a totally viable option.

In reply to AMiataCalledSteve :

I've seen a Civic that got punched by a modern Camaro when the Camaro had a brake failure of some sort. The damage to the Honda was... significant.

Stuff happens. Hopefully not often, but it's still something I think about.

In reply to BlueInGreen - Jon :

Back in the late 1970's when I was selling early Honda Civics. I sold one and a week later sold another to the same family.  They had been hit by a semi who's brakes had failed.   The car was knocked way out into a potato field and the couple survived with minor bruises.  
      It's easy to see how things could have turned out worse but it's hard not to respect the car for surviving the collision with the semi. 
        I've also seen a few Sprite/ midget accidents in SCCA racing without injuries.  
       Let me tell you that you do NOT need a tank to survive an accident.   Size and weight,  matter little in spite of myths to the contrary .    A bigger.    ( and heavier)  car is not as nimble as a smaller light car. It's just a bigger target. 
      Vintage racing is more rewarding than HPDE  events.  Skill matters.  As you develop those skills your appreciation of your talent feels very good.  You are less of a poseur, and more of a participant.  That's why so many people arrive with big smiles on their face.  Typically they leave feeling with  a far deeper sense  of joy.  
     The Vintage people do everything they can to help you get back on the track.  It's about the Joy of real racing without the risk of real racing.  ( No Contact allowed!)    Drive as fast as you can while maintaining control.  
     You'll learn who you can really have a dice with and those who need a wide berth.   If you're new, they will help you get skilled.  And give you that wide berth until you feel comfortable. 
  Finally a Spridget can be among the least expensive cars to race.    If you run into a period where you need to sit things out for a while due to money.   The Spridget will sit in the corner and just wait for you. 
        

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate the input you've given me.

Helpful Background:

• I have been doing some form of autocross, drag, circuit racing since the late 90's.
  • Very very entry level though.
• Last year was my first year going to circuit track days a couple times a month.
• Right now non-competetive track days are the extent of it, in the future I plan to try to get into wheel to wheel through ice racing (I'll buy a Chevette).
• In the past I've tracked fairly high performance cars but I'm more risk adverse now and the idea of crashing something expensive is a non-starter (can't find good track day insurance in Canada without fake US address).
• This last year I absolutely loved tracking my Fiesta but it's a clean/stock/unmolested car that puts a smile on my face when I'm bombing to work and I don't feel like gutting it, suspension, brakes and making it pretty awful for the road.
• I have a reliable tow vehicle but currently no trailer.

I think the Spridget is out of the running as although I like the idea of it I think the reality of it isn't what I'm looking for.

The E46 is probably the most logical choice but I don't covet it if that makes sense, with the difficulty of selling a race car around here I am hoping to get it fairly right the first time.

So current options:

• E46 - $10,000 CDN
  • Clean
  • All of the maintenance for track stuff is done.
• OMS D-Sport Racer - $18,000 CDN plus finding a trailer
  • Yesterday I posted locally and this popped up.
  • GSXR engine - I am a former sportbike guy so I love this.
  • What kind of nightmare would this be to run?
  • This is starting to hit some dollar values that I'm not sure I want to be at.
  • This feels like the most fun thing that I could possibly imagine and you only live once.
• E30 - V8 Swap - $??? plus finding a trailer.  I'm not sure what will be fair for my buddy.
  • I have a running/driving Ford 302 swapped E30.
  • It runs like E36 M3.  Currently doesn't seem to be running on all cylinders.
  • It's a co-project with a good friend - his car, my work and money.
    • He doesn't care about the car.
  • I could just buy him out of the project.
  • I know everything about it.
  • It needs so much work... I am a bit burnt out on it.
  • It is awesome.

frenchyd said:

In reply to BlueInGreen - Jon :

Back in the late 1970's when I was selling early Honda Civics. I sold one and a week later sold another to the same family.  They had been hit by a semi who's brakes had failed.   The car was knocked way out into a potato field and the couple survived with minor bruises.  
      It's easy to see how things could have turned out worse but it's hard not to respect the car for surviving the collision with the semi. 
        I've also seen a few Sprite/ midget accidents in SCCA racing without injuries.  
       Let me tell you that you do NOT need a tank to survive an accident.   Size and weight,  matter little in spite of myths to the contrary .    A bigger.    ( and heavier)  car is not as nimble as a smaller light car. It's just a bigger target. 
      Vintage racing is more rewarding than HPDE  events.  Skill matters.  As you develop those skills your appreciation of your talent feels very good.  You are less of a poseur, and more of a participant.  That's why so many people arrive with big smiles on their face.  Typically they leave feeling with  a far deeper sense  of joy.  
     The Vintage people do everything they can to help you get back on the track.  It's about the Joy of real racing without the risk of real racing.  ( No Contact allowed!)    Drive as fast as you can while maintaining control.  
     You'll learn who you can really have a dice with and those who need a wide berth.   If you're new, they will help you get skilled.  And give you that wide berth until you feel comfortable. 
  Finally a Spridget can be among the least expensive cars to race.    If you run into a period where you need to sit things out for a while due to money.   The Spridget will sit in the corner and just wait for you. 
        

That does sound amazing.  My schedule is the biggest concern with trying to be in a league of some sort, work, kids and our small farm mean that I don't get to choose which days I get to go have fun.

"The E46 is probably the most logical choice but I don't covet it if that makes sense"

That does make sense, but imo a racecar is really just a tool for a job. And if your time is limited (I've got little kids and house projects and stuff that take up my weekends, so sounds like we're in the same boat) maybe the best tool is the one that requires the least time to keep it ready to be on track.

I guess what I'm saying is, you have to decide if you want a cool car that excites you that you'll be able to spend time tinkering with, or if your priority is driving on track and you want the car that will just make it easiest to get there when the rest of your life is already pretty full.

Just depends on what your end goals are.

I liked my 2.4 swapped Neon but without a bunch of work, a reliable and trouble free track car it was not.

I don't have the 2.4 swapped Neon anymore :P

BlueInGreen - Jon said:

"The E46 is probably the most logical choice but I don't covet it if that makes sense"

That does make sense, but imo a racecar is really just a tool for a job.

Oh I 100% agree that it's dumb, I just know that my squirel powered brain will lose interest if I don't love the car.  I could also just keep racing the Fiesta and slowly convert it into what I want.

In reply to CodyD :

E46 sounds like the best bet. My experience lurking in Open wheel racing seems best if you plan on racing as the HPDE and track focused events did not allow them and low car counts depending on your region. I loved my E30 race car (did not have a V8 swapped). Body parts are getting to be rare, consumables are fairly cheap (for a BMW)

In reply to CodyD :

A D-Sport Racer would probably be super fun, but if you're trying to go a little cheaper you might be able to snag a Thunder Roadster for closer to 10k, though I have no idea if they ever made it up to Canada. Still single seat and bike-powered, but I think they share a lot in common with legends cars and are a little cheaper than a lot of other track-only sports cars.

In my neck of the woods the cheapest way to get a full race car is probably to find an old NASCAR-style stock car of some sort. I bought mine non-running out of a parking lot and am working on getting it track-ready, but running cars usually seem to go for as low as $12-15k. Maybe there are some old CASCARs sitting around in your neck of the woods?

In reply to CodyD :

Of those choices I'd pick the sports racer.  Working on a pure race car is faster and easier than any converted race car.  But!!! It will have higher demands of you.     Your setup skills and physical condition are major factors.   
   One thing though.  You would have to be done with HPDE .   

At least around here you can run a sports racer at track days, I see Radicals and the like somewhat frequently.

(That's not to say it's a good idea -- from what I can tell the best case is that you get super frustrated because you're so much faster than everyone else on track that you never get any clear space to drive.  Worst case is that this pushes you into taking iffy passes and someone in a Camaro doesn't seen you.  That doesn't end well for the < 1000 pound race car.)

I agree about the E46 being the choice that maximizes the driving-to-wrenching time ratio.

Universal rule of life: Look at what your (track) peers are doing and try to fit in. 

Sprites are a Giggle to drive, certainly more fun than the BMW because you are going to be spending more time on the ragged edge and that is where the fun is. If it all goes wrong, you can just step out ( to quote Jeremy Clarkson)

What drivetrain is in the sprite matters. A  high strung 948 is like a grenade with the pin pulled. The non-ribbed gearboxes are made of paper-mache. Rear axles and spider gears are almost good enough for stock, so do the math.

Top speed and any kind or acceleration feelings are not going to be part of your experience with a sprite because they are not there to be had. Maybe corner forces and braking forces if the car has aftermarket brakes and hoosier tires. 

The sprite is going to need constant maintenance/repair compared to the BMW.

If you want to go fast and compare times with your friends get the BMW.

NOHOME said:

Sprites are a Giggle to drive, certainly more fun than the BMW because you are going to be spending more time on the ragged edge and that is where the fun is.

Have you see a Spec E46 race lately?  Those guys spend a lot of time sideways :)

In reply to CodyD :

I also ran a D-Sports Racer for a little over 4 seasons.

They are kick ass to drive and will spank most road cars.

Consumables are going to be as much if not more then a BMW. Becuase they are so fast you will go through tires quickly. You'll get no more then two weekends out of a set if tires.

DSRs also tend to be maintenance intensive; this is also down to their speed.

I loved driving mine (the lap times were within 1 second a lap of Trans-Am cars) but I hated owning it. I could deal with the maintenance and I could deal with the cost but the two combined were to much for me.

They are awesome to drive and if the maintenance intervals and cost aren't an issue you will find few cars that are as awesome to drive.

I agree with Tom1200, the sports racer is a really serious car that will probably scare you until you get used to it. I don't like BMWs, but it may be a better choice.

IMHO, get a Miata. They are super fun to drive, and you can mod them (turbo, V6 swap) to make them a lot faster.