NA Miata brake upgrade for track days

I almost have my 95 Miata ready to go to its first track day, with only few things needing to be replaced, upgraded, and/or adjusted, one of them being the brakes. My current pads and rotors need replacing, which is perfect timing as I need to upgrade them anyways, but I don't know how much of an upgrade I should do. I know that I 100% need more aggressive pads, but I don't know if I need bigger brakes or not. My 95 Miata is fully gutted and stripped, runs 225/50R15 R888R's, and makes 148 WHP, I'm running 3in diameter brake ducts which will help with brake cooling as heat capacity is my main concern. I know for sure that I don't need a full BBK to prevent brake fade, but I'm not 100% sure if my stock 1.8 NA brakes will be enough. The sport brakes seem ideal as they fit my wheels and are easy to swap, but they do incur a modification factor that could require me to tone the car down to remain in the class I'm planning to compete in, so I'd like to stick with stock calipers if possible. Will I be able to use my current calipers as long as I do a pad and rotor upgrade, or even with 3in brake ducts will I need to upgrade to sport calipers to prevent brake fade? 

Stock brakes are fine. Upgrade the pads, use fresh, track appropriate fluid, send it

Pad options for Sport brakes are pretty limited. Just use calipers/brackets/rotors from a 1.8L car, good race pads and fluid. 

Do you have braided stainless lines on it already? If not, I would add those to your list. But no reason to upgrade to BBK

When I was slowly turning my 90 Miata into a Spec Miata in 06, I took it to a NASA track day.  I was an instructor, so I got free track time.

I had removed the passenger seat and carpet, but that was the only thing done to the car.  I had some really cheap YKS tires on the stock 14" Daisies.  It had stock pads and fluid. At 196k miles, that fluid was probably the original.  I never had one single problem with the brakes, or with brake fade.  I was running in group 4 (expert), with three NASCAR stock cars, two Ferrari Challenge cars, and lots of Z06 Corvettes, most of them on slicks, so I definitely had to hustle the car around.  Nothing like out-braking Ferrari's into turn 1 at Sebring and driving around the outside of them!

My 2016 Camaro has been through several track days, and at least 20 passes at the drag strip where it hits 100mph, and I'm still on the original pads and rotors at almost 98k miles.

It's all in how you use the brakes.  If you're ham fisted, you probably won't see good results.

One thing I would suggest is to do a little warm-up procedure before you really start using them.  If the pad hasn't ever had a prolonged heat exposure before, there will still be 'bedding' in period needed.  Get them hot for that first session, hotter than street or autocross driving, but not like when you're pushing.  Then let them cool before the next session, and they'll be pretty good

A lot is going to depend on the track, the length of the sessions (time attack v. w2w?), and your pace.  At 148whp on 225 R comps, you will absolutely be able to overwhelm stock brakes with street+ pads, especially on tracks with hard/long braking zones.   

For stock 1.8 brakes, go with plain Centric rotors, good race pads, good fluid, and braided lines would be a good idea.  Rotors are going to be consumables, so no reason to get fancy.  I use Motul fluid and G-Loc pads.  A good bleed, and bedding the pads in properly are essential.  As noted above, warm the brakes up, don't go all-out into the first braking zone.  Be prepared to replace pads/rotors on a regular basis.

Having run both stock brakes and big brakes on a Miata, the big brakes make life a LOT easier....  better feel, better modulation, better heat tolerance and rotors/pads last a lot longer.   Of course, none of that matters if your ruleset doesn't allow it.

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

Pad options for Sport brakes are pretty limited. Just use calipers/brackets/rotors from a 1.8L car, good race pads and fluid. 

95 is a 1.8L car if the OP is in the US, so that's a good starting point.

High temp fluid, good race or semi-race pads (depending on the car being trailered to the track or not) and braided lines, especially if the rubber ones are more than a few years old.

Assuming the brake ducts are pointed in the right place for proper cooling, that should more or less cover it for a relatively low powered NA.

I've run a bunch of HPDE events at VIR, Summit Point, and Dominion with a nearly stock NA. Cheap stock rotors, Hawk HP+ pads, and some dot 4 fluid have held up for all, dusty as hell though. Talking to others on grid, brakes have very rarely been an issue. If you can lock up your wheels at will, you've got enough brakes.

A real track pad (I like Pagid Yellow, but brake pad opinions are varied) and a fluid flush, check and grease your slide pins/check the seals and throw on good quality blank rotors and you're golden.

At 148 you definitely don't NEED a BBK, but you can put one on if you'd like. Ease of changing pads and rebuilds can be nice. A properly staggered piston can help with even pad wear as well.

My V8 Miata has bro fabs bigger big brake kit (really nice because the absurd pad thickness and cheap rotors), my Max aero Miata used some wildwood and J hook BBK, my supercharged exocet used flyin' miata's "Little Big brake kit" (I liked this one because it was lighter). My TT6 car just uses stock 1.8 stuff, same with my spec Miata obviously.

I.e. if you have a specific goal or parameter in mind there's probably a BBK that could work for you (wheel fitment being the biggest issue), if you're just looking at something that will work, stock with track pads/fluid is all you need.

In reply to accordionfolder :

"check and grease your slide pins" I bet a lot of people miss that.

toonarmy said:

Do you have braided stainless lines on it already? If not, I would add those to your list. But no reason to upgrade to BBK

I'm not sure I'd recommend these. Fresh rubber lines could be a good idea, but SS lines are harder to package because of how much less flexible they are, and their failure mode is less forgiving because they fail from the inside-out vs. rubber lines which fail from the outside-in. Also the improvement in feel vs. rubber lines in good condition is miniscule.

FM's master cylinder firewall brace made a noticeable difference in feel for me.

On the topic of Miata brakes, with your brake vent system, you should be fine with upgraded pads & fluid. If you want track pads that are still streetable try EBC Yellowstuff, they're kind of grabby and and eat rotors but they'll laugh off the heat a Miata can put into them on track and they're pretty quiet and civilized on the street. G-Loc R8s are a bit more aggressive and noisy but still somewhat streetable and might not eat rotors as much.

I'm running stock sized 1.8 brakes on my 94 track car, though at stock power levels.

I've never had a problem with brake fade running Gloc GP635-R8 (fronts) and GP636-R8 (rear) on standard Centric blanks with 200TW tires.  I also have brake ducts, but it's mostly for life purposes, I don't think I need it.  I could go softer on the rear compound, but the setup works really well with a bias adjuster. 

For reference, I've probably put close to 100 track hours on this setup alone, and another 50-100 on the previous setup (hawk blues if I recall).  I like the glocs, the dust doesn't rust on the rims!

In reply to toonarmy :

I don't have them yet, but they are on the list. I was just waiting to see if I needed ones that were sport brake compatible or not.

In reply to Rodan :

I'm building the car to compete in NASA ST5 so about 20 minutes of racing with plenty of cooldown time in between. And the main track that I plan on running my car at is Arizona Motorsport Park which is often described as "4 drag strips connected by a few corners" so it pretty brutal on brakes. I already had plain centric rotors, stainless lines, and RBF 600 on the list, but which pads to go with is the only thing I'm undecided on. Especially since after re-reading the rules, sport brakes are no longer a modification factor point hit, so I am free to run them. So now my main question is if upgrading to them is worth the money. 

I'd throw in a Bias adjuster if you can use it, I've never seen a stock Miata that had enough rear bias and that will help distribute the heat and wear a bit.

I don't think theres any major advantage to the sport brakes vs regular. Any modern pad will get you plenty of brakes with an ST5 car. I love the modulation and life on the Pagid Yellow, but they're a bit pricy. I've heard good things about the modern Hawk Pads, like the DTC-60. 

I'd check, but the races I run with NASA are usually 30 minutes long and they're pretty tough on equipment and the mental bandwidth if you've got close racing. 

In reply to accordionfolder :

Im building my brake setup around worst case/most demanding scenario, which shy of a multi hour endurance race, ST5 fits that bill. I would like to use a bias adjuster, but I don't know if that is allowed, even with a modification factor, and it doesn't seem to be something that will drastically affect my braking compared to pad and/or caliper choice, so ive kinda put that thought on the mental back burner until I decide on pads and calipers. The only requirements for me for pads besides the obvious of no brake fade, is that the brake dust can't be corrosive and it either doesn't require a transfer layer so I can swap from track to street pads at will, or if it does need a transfer layer that the pads will have enough cold bite on the street to be safe. I don't particularly care about noise or how harsh they are on rotors, this car isn't a daily so higher running costs and/0r worse nvh doesn't bother me in the slightest. 

plszmr said:

In reply to accordionfolder :

Im building my brake setup around worst case/most demanding scenario, which shy of a multi hour endurance race, ST5 fits that bill. I would like to use a bias adjuster, but I don't know if that is allowed, even with a modification factor, and it doesn't seem to be something that will drastically affect my braking compared to pad and/or caliper choice, so ive kinda put that thought on the mental back burner until I decide on pads and calipers. The only requirements for me for pads besides the obvious of no brake fade, is that the brake dust can't be corrosive and it either doesn't require a transfer layer so I can swap from track to street pads at will, or if it does need a transfer layer that the pads will have enough cold bite on the street to be safe. I don't particularly care about noise or how harsh they are on rotors, this car isn't a daily so higher running costs and/0r worse nvh doesn't bother me in the slightest. 

I do drive on my glocs, they're not too squeaky unless it's really cold out in the morning...   And yeah, the corrosive dust is the main reason I switched to 'em!

I will say that I love the bias adjustment.. It really makes the car a lot more confident on aggressive trail braking, as the stock setup really wants to understeer, which is a logical choice for the OEM...

In reply to WonkoTheSane :

Ive been hearing a lot of good things about glocs lately, so I will probably go with them as my first set of pads. Ill try all the other pads that have been suggested, but glocs are definitely at the top of the list. And what specific compound do you use?

Look at all the Spec Miatas that race in Florida during the summer.  I once did an hour and a half enduro at Sebring on Labor Day weekend.  It was 96 degrees, and nearly 100 percent humidity.  Hottest I've ever been in a race car.  But I never had a problem with the brakes.  You can spend a lot of money if you want, but the stock brakes, if they're in good working order, are pretty good.

If nothing else, I'll caution against making too many changes right off the bat.  Run the stock ones a few times while you sort out other changes to the car.  Then you'll have a good baseline if you make a brake change later.

racerfink said:

Look at all the Spec Miatas that race in Florida during the summer.  I once did an hour and a half enduro at Sebring on Labor Day weekend.  It was 96 degrees, and nearly 100 percent humidity.  Hottest I've ever been in a race car.  But I never had a problem with the brakes.  You can spend a lot of money if you want, but the stock brakes, if they're in good working order, are pretty good.

Spec Miatas make quite a bit less power than an ST5 car does.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

That's true, but the OP's car is in the range of a SuperMiata competitor (I guess it's called SuperSpec Racing now) and they use stock brakes.

This guide covers the long and short of it - they second your choice of GLoc. I didn't think of it or I would've sent this at the start. 

Either way there are a lot of really fast miata using regular ol' miata brakes. If you want to spend the dough, or have a parameter set where the math works out in your favor BBK's are fun/bling too. I've heard of a few GLTC competitors that use brofab's Bigger Big Brake Kit because they get so much track time out of a single set of the ENORMOUS pads.

Last note, like tire temps, the proof is in the pudding, you need to throw temp strips on your calipers if you're having problems and measure. Brake pad have spec sheets with them and will give you the range, including max range. 

Though this isn't directly applicable, it might still be useful:

When I built Midlana (mid-engine "Lotus Seven"), it used Miata hubs, uprights, and brakes. The thinking was that stock Miata brakes would be fine because the car weighed about 25% less than the Miata the parts came from. I eventually learned though that while that was true, the car had a higher top speed, plus it could stop faster, dumping more heat into the brakes in less time. The top speed thing matters because the energy that gets dumped into the brakes is dependent upon the speed squared. For example, to slow from 130 mph to 80 mph generates X amount of heat. Stopping from 150 mph to 80 mph is only 15% faster, yet dumps 33% more heat into the brakes.

I briefly thought of upgrading from stock to the Miata Sport Brakes but was shocked by how much heaver the discs were. I ended up going with the big brake kit from V8 Miata - really expensive, but I never regretted getting them.

For ST5 at your power levels, either of these 2 options will work well 

Carbotech or G-Loc using their 12 front and either 12 or 10 rear depending on whether you use a lot of trail brake. 
 

Hawk DTC 60 front and either 60 or 30 rear 

Defintely get the braided lines from whatever your favorite vendor is. I don't think you'll need a manual bias adjuster.