Wow, the GRM forum is behind the times. We went through all the "waaaaaah, 155 hp" moaning about six months ago. Then people started to drive them.
It'll easily run down and pass a 240 hp S2000. Btdt.
For 25 years, Miata drivers have been asking us for "more low end power". Which is what you got. We'll add some excitement to it, have no doubt. But it's a quick little car out of the box, regardless of what the peak dyno number is.
MCarp22 wrote: Enthusiasts love bolt-ons and there should be some easy power to find, perhaps in the ECU tune.
RX8driver said: Brian Goodwin's been working on a couple over on his mazdatalk forum, posting dyno numbers with various combinations of parts and tuning.
Well. There you have it.
Keith Tanner wrote: Wow, the GRM forum is behind the times. We went through all the "waaaaaah, 155 hp" moaning about six months ago. Then people started to drive them.
We did too. Dorks have short memories. 
Good-win's dyno (see above) overlaid with a stock FR-S:
Look at that mountain of torque right where the FR-S dips down! 
MCarp22 wrote:AntiArrhythmic wrote: I'm trying to understand the low power output. The torque curve is beautiful, but doesn't this thing have 11:1 compression? I just feel that a 2.0L with that compression should make a lot more horsepower.13:1, but it appears to be tuned for low end. Nobody in the USA gives a E36 M3 if it makes power up high if it is perceived as being "gutless" (like the FR-S). The average person will drive this, feel the torque below 4000 or so (they're scared to redline it! ) and think "wow this is more powerful than I expected! " Enthusiasts love bolt-ons and there should be some easy power to find, perhaps in the ECU tune.
I just recently had a chance to drive an FR-S, so got to see which side of the fence I landed on in terms of the engine/power debate. My opinion is it's a great platform, but the engine needs to be ripped out and thrown in a ditch....it just kills it for me. IMO that engine has no business being in a sports car. I really liked the rest of the car though.
Keith Tanner wrote: It'll easily run down and pass a 240 hp S2000. Btdt.
Really???
On a track, yes. Remember that an S2000 weighs 2750 lbs, an ND weighs 2300.
I also got a point-by from a Cayman S on Nitto NT-01s. They're quick little things.
I have an NA and while it's fine. It desperately wants 50% more hp. Not 10 more.
I read that and then found that everything I would have said and more is already being said. This thread makes me happy.
I recently picked up a $500 NA and i don't feel like it 'needs' 50 hp. But it could sure use some low-end torque!!
Keith Tanner wrote: On a track, yes. Remember that an S2000 weighs 2750 lbs, an ND weighs 2300. I also got a point-by from a Cayman S on Nitto NT-01s. They're quick little things.
Keith Tanner wrote: On a track, yes. Remember that an S2000 weighs 2750 lbs, an ND weighs 2300.
Is that an S2000 with a less experienced driver? Both cars stock? On the same tires? I'm not understanding how it would be significantly faster than an S2000.
ProDarwin wrote:Keith Tanner wrote: On a track, yes. Remember that an S2000 weighs 2750 lbs, an ND weighs 2300.Is that an S2000 with a less experienced driver? Both cars stock? On the same tires? I'm not understanding how it would be significantly faster than an S2000.
I was just about to point out the same. I suspect Keith is noticeably faster behind the wheel than the avg HPDE'er.
I wouldn't give myself that credit - and I was watching the S2000 from a good vantage point. He was driving in the B group.
The ND generates spectacular grip, and the nice big flat powerband makes for a very useful tool. The ND was modified - of course, because it's what I do - but it certainly didn't have too much trouble running down the Honda. I have no idea what had been done to the S2000.
The takeaway is that light weight and a wide torque band trumps heavier and peakier. No surprise there. And that the Miata suspension is really good.
The Cayman was a tougher nut to crack
I like the shape of that torque curve.
Keith Tanner wrote: heavier and peakier. No surprise there. And that the Miata suspension is really good.
Is the S2000 really that "peaky" though? I'd argue that it's a terrible example of it. They make pretty much flat torque from low revs all the way to VTEC, where it bumps up a few ft/lbs and continues with more flat torque all the way to the moon.
Well, it sure doesn't have the torque curve of a 240 hp engine with displacement or boost. Everything happens above 6k. So yeah, peaky.
Being able to pass a car that's 16 years old shouldn't really be surprising.
MCarp22 wrote:Keith Tanner wrote: heavier and peakier. No surprise there. And that the Miata suspension is really good.Is the S2000 really that "peaky" though? I'd argue that it's a terrible example of it. They make pretty much flat torque from low revs all the way to VTEC, where it bumps up a few ft/lbs and continues with more flat torque all the way to the moon.
In stock form, the VTEC engagement is way too late so you feel a big jump when it kicks in, so it certainly can make it feel peaky. Look at a dyno for an STR S2000 and the TQ curve is a lot smoother, but there is still a hump to it. I'd say its definitely flatter than the curve in the original posted video though.
I'd be curious to see how STR-level ND & S2000 compare on the track. If the ND ends up in STR, no doubt it will be the car to have.
Keith Tanner wrote: Well, it sure doesn't have the torque curve of a 240 hp engine with displacement or boost. Everything happens above 6k. So yeah, peaky.
Personal taste. I see that as a broad powerband available to you. An engine that calls it quits at 6k means you have to shift a lot.
In reply to Knurled:
So do engines that rev quickly.
In reply to Knurled:
One has to shift based on the gears and the power band width.
I suspect one would have to shift a lot between 6000-9000 rpm, too.
6 gears would shift more often than 5, both more often than 4.
Unless you have more torque. An effective powerband that runs from 6000 to 9000 isn't any better or worse than one that runs from 3000 to 6000. It does make a higher pitched noise, though 
I have an engine that calls it quits at 6600. And I can drive complete laps of Laguna Seca in 4th gear
Keith posts slow.
In reply to Keith Tanner:
You need to learn how to use more fingers.
So people are asking for 200hp, almost exactly as predicted by Toyobaru math!*
*Scaling the actual power of the ND by the same number that would bring the Toyobaru's power to the requested number
C&D's annual lightning lap issue came out a little while ago. They put the ND around VIR in 3:20.8 and a S2K CR from a previous year in 3:15.0. Given that it's suspension is fairly soft from the factory, I have to imagine the ND has more scope for improvement with modest modifications.
Snrub wrote: C&D's annual lightning lap issue came out a little while ago. They put the ND around VIR in 3:20.8 and a S2K CR from a previous year in 3:15.0. Given that it's suspension is fairly soft from the factory, I have to imagine the ND has more scope for improvement with modest modifications.
Remember the S2K has a gross amount of tire stagger though.
Still, impressive performance from the ND.
Keith Tanner wrote: Unless you have more torque. An effective powerband that runs from 6000 to 9000 isn't any better or worse than one that runs from 3000 to 6000. It does make a higher pitched noise, though
While technically an engine with an effective powerband from 3k to 6k is twice as large as a 6k to 9k band (well, a percentage as large - 6k to 9k is a 50% increase in speed, 3k to 6k is a 100% increase in speed... and that's where I fail to be concerned with the actual number since the concept is explained) but most street engines with powerbands like that aren't completely dead below that, they're tractable but just not in the meat of the curve.
Wait, it would be in my BEST interest if people wanted to dump S2000s for pennies on the dollar, because I want one but don't want to pay current market rate. Uh, yeah, the Miata tractor engine is the new paradigm, look at how much faster it is in the real world 
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