New 2016+ ND Miata or AP2 S2000?

In reply to Keith Tanner:

Thanks for that analysis. So, it sounds like the Billy suspension is too much high-speed damping and not enough low-speed damping? I too dislike what that does for handling feel. What is it with most U.S. market cars (of all types) having insufficient OEM damping?

Slippery wrote: If you want an S2000, get it now. They are not being made anymore and it will be harder and harder to find a good one as time passes. You can probably buy it, get it out of your system and sell it in a year for the same amount you bought it for. Then buy the ND.

Exactly this.

I'd be hesitant to track an appreciating car, but I'd be more hesitant to track a car that's still under warranty.

I've driven the AP1, AP2, and every generation of miata. The ND is the better street car. The AP2 is the more capable car.

I found the S2000 to be tiring; as a dd, you're constantly shifting to keep it in the powerband, and yet I always felt anxious because I knew I wasn't anywhere close to exploiting its limits on the street.

But OP said this is going to be a fair weather canyon carver, and on just the right day, with the right road, the S2000 is magic.

Didn't we have this discussion somewhere on the board before where a stock for stock ND would PULL the S2000 every where but the very top end?

I could have swore I read that in a ND thread similar to this.

roninsoldier83 wrote: The S2000's you drove, were they AP1's, AP2's or both? I've driven both and the AP2 certainly seemed a less manic/more streetable car.

I've driven both, plus the AP2 CR. That's probably the S2000 I regret not buying most, but that's a story that has more to do with the dealer and less with the car.

The AP2 is definitely more streetable and less manic, but that's mostly compared to the AP1 .

Based on lots of reviews and performance stats, I assumed that the S2000 was the more hardcore performance oriented car and the ND was the better street car. Then someone on the Miata boards pointed out some interesting lap times that Motor Trend pulled at Laguna Seca with an ND Miata in their recent Best Driver's Car event and compared it to the best lap time MT pulled at Laguna Seca in a 2006 S2000 a few years back:

-2016 Miata Club= 1:50.68

-2006 S2000= 1:50.74

Granted, they were done several years apart with different drivers (Randy Pobst vs Max Angelelli), but I think it illustrates that they seem to actually be pretty comparable. Yes, I readily concede that I'm just bench racing here, but I think its relevant info.

Here are both articles:

-ND- http://www.motortrend.com/news/2015-motor-trend-best-drivers-car/

-2006 S2000- http://www.motortrend.com/news/2006-honda-s2000-laguna-lap/

I noted that MT complained of brake fade on the S2000.

I guess I just assumed the S2000 would be faster due to Car and Driver's annual Lightning Lap results:

-2008 S2000 CR= 3:15.0

-2016 Miata= 3:20.8

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/lightning-lap-2015-results-historical-lap-times-and-more-feature

Granted, that is not a "regular" S2000, its the CR, which has extra go-fast goodies on it (aero, stiffer suspension & slightly wider tires). I also noted Car and Driver stating their S2000 suffered from brake fade at VIR: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/lightning-lap-2008-feature-ll2-2008-honda-s2000-cr-page-13

It sounds like the OEM pads on the S2000 are certainly not up to the task of road course work. Granted, I don't expect any OEM pads to hold up to track work. In reference to the ND's brakes the MT article mentioned “And the brakes weren’t up to the task at Mazda Raceway", but they never mentioned anything about major fade/failure like the S2000 experienced. From what I understand, both cars would probably be fine running a set of decent pads on stock calipers.

I was curious about how much faster a CR was around a track vs a standard AP2. According to Car and Driver, a 2008 CR lapped Mid-Ohio about 3 seconds faster than a standard S2000: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2008-honda-s2000-cr-first-drive-review

That's a pretty significant gap in my opinion.

After looking at the numbers, I'm not so convinced that a standard (non-CR) S2000 doesn't have comparable track performance to the ND. Again, this is all just bench racing and speculating, but it doesn't seem they're as far off on a race track as I originally thought they were.

Looking at the SCCA's new rule book "draft", it looks like they still believe the S2000 is the faster car based on classing in Street:

-S2000 CR= AS

-S2000 (non-CR)= BS

-ND Miata= CS

http://cdn.growassets.net/user_files/scca/downloads/000/011/752/2016_Solo_Rules_DRAFT_b_12-27-2015_reduced.pdf?1451250334

In my eyes the ND looks like that car to have next year in CS. It'll be interesting to see the ND running against the BRZ/FR-S, NC and RX-8. The biggest limiting factor I can see for the ND in an autoX setting would be the very aggressive/short gearing requiring a lot of shifter work. Should be interesting to see nonetheless.

Keith Tanner wrote: One-off Miatas are pretty hard to come by. It's not that hard to swap an LSD into a Sport, the parts are available.

There's a thread on Miata.net right now where someone swapped in an LSD. Took them about four hours despite having to pull the subframe. That doesn't sound too bad to me.

I knew I wasn't crazy. Keith Tanner said the ND would run down the S2000

Motor Trends test says the MX-5 is faster: Motor Trend ND vs BRZ on You Tube

OP: Now stop bench racing and go test drive an ND!

LuxInterior wrote: Motor Trends test says the MX-5 is faster: Motor Trend ND vs BRZ on You Tube OP: Now stop bench racing and go test drive an ND!

Haha!

When I left the house at 6:30am this morning it was 8 degrees F outside and there's still ice all over the streets in my neighborhood. High temps throughout the week are ranging from 25-32 dF. Not exactly prime roadster on summer-tires test driving conditions! This Saturday the weather is supposed to be clear with temps peaking at a balmy 39 dF, so I might try to sneak away to take one for a spin then.

roninsoldier83 wrote: Looking at the SCCA's new rule book "draft", it looks like they still believe the S2000 is the faster car based on classing in Street: -S2000 CR= AS -S2000 (non-CR)= BS -ND Miata= CS http://cdn.growassets.net/user_files/scca/downloads/000/011/752/2016_Solo_Rules_DRAFT_b_12-27-2015_reduced.pdf?1451250334 In my eyes the ND looks like that car to have next year in CS. It'll be interesting to see the ND running against the BRZ/FR-S, NC and RX-8. The biggest limiting factor I can see for the ND in an autoX setting would be the very aggressive/short gearing requiring a lot of shifter work. Should be interesting to see nonetheless.

This! The ND is far superior to every miata/MX5 in every way but the scca doesn't think it's able to compete with the S2K? They just want to make sure it brings home all the trophies before giving it any real competition?

evildky wrote: This! The ND is far superior to every miata/MX5 in every way but the scca doesn't think it's able to compete with the S2K? They just want to make sure it brings home all the trophies before giving it any real competition?

According to Andy Hollis & a few other guys over on M.net it looks like the ND is going to do well on short, low-speed courses, but on longer, higher speed courses the aggressive, short gearing is leading to a lot of time lost on 2-3 & 3-2 shifts... No more tall geared 5-speed in the ND to help the car stay in 2nd on faster courses.

This might be similar to what happened to the old MSM's- they had a lower redline & more aggressive final drive than regular NB's; made for a fun car, but they were regularly beat by standard NB's on faster courses.

There is a lot of talk on m.net about guys running shorter tires to help the ND at least maximize time in 3rd. Should be interesting.

Those are probably the same guys who called me an idiot for putting 23" tires on our ND within a week

The ND Bilstein shocks aren't under damped, unlike the early NC ones. It's that high speed compression that feels bad.

The ND makes excellent use of its rubber. The tire size to grip ratio is astounding. And yes, with the recipe I gave earlier you can run down an S2k on track

Obviously I'll be keen to say ap2, but you really just need to drive them both as close to back-to-back as possible and decide for yourself.

Both will be excellent cars, on and off the track/autocross, but they are likely to drive differently. We can talk numbers all day, but it's difficult to help you decide what you like.

Flight Service wrote: I knew I wasn't crazy. Keith Tanner said the ND would run down the S2000

Yes. And I've run down a guy in a newish GT500 Mustang in my stock '94 Miata. I was a newbie, and it felt great. But its's kind of meaningless unless you've equalized the driving talent.

From what I could see - and I had a pretty good view - the S2k driver wasn't a complete hack. Make whatever excuses you want. The ND is surprisingly fast.

Flight Service wrote: Didn't we have this discussion somewhere on the board before where a stock for stock ND would PULL the S2000 every where but the very top end? I could have swore I read that in a ND thread similar to this.

A lighter car with the same displacement engine can out accelerate from low speed? I'm not surprised in the least.

The ND has some very interesting gearing. It has competition gear spacing with some lower gears thrown in. By the numbers you would have to be a doofus to ever find yourself off song.

LuxInterior wrote:

Flight Service wrote: I knew I wasn't crazy. Keith Tanner said the ND would run down the S2000

Yes. And I've run down a guy in a newish GT500 Mustang in my stock '94 Miata. I was a newbie, and it felt great. But its's kind of meaningless unless you've equalized the driving talent.

And I have destroyed Corvettes in a Ranger, but Keith is pretty straight up when it comes to these things, he has no problem saying a package would not be competitive. From what I have seen in the years on this board is he tends to undersell the capabilities of what he represents so he ensures he doesn't overstate and disappoint current/potential clients.

If Keith says XYZ setup on a ND is competitive against a S2K, I wouldn't hesitate to put $100 on it.

Dang. Tons of info and responses in this thread. I'll be honest, I didnt read most of them, but I can tell you right now the ND will be the better daily driver, while the S2000 will be faster on the track. Also, S2000 WILL keep its resale better. Thats a given.

In reply to Desmond:

From what we have seen in the thread the ND is faster on the track, and better DD, but lower resale.

You're probably right. I guess another thing to consider is the S2000 will be the trickier car to drive in my eyes. ND seems very well engineered and the power band looks nice and neat. Should translate into being easy to drive.

The S2000 you really have to keep them in that sweet spot to get the most out of them. Lots of down shifting required because if you dip below VTEC engagement, you will notice it. That could translate into being a more rewarding experience, or it could translate to being a PITA.

The S2k should be pretty close to fully depreciated and (hopefully) starting to climb up the other side soon if not already. So that's a big plus for the Honda, as the ND hasn't depreciated at all. Cost of ownership on the S2k should be quite a bit lower because of this, but you will have some typical Old Car Problems. Not many, as it's a Honda, but some.

This brings up a question, actually. I know the S2k doesn't share much with other Hondas and it's a relatively low production vehicle. Do you think there's any chance it'll start to get difficult to find parts? My 1985 CRX Si, for example, is a bit of a challenge that way. Shock selection is very limited. You can't buy new cables for the sunroof, interior parts are NLA, etc. And it shares a LOT of parts with other Civics of the era. My 323 GTX was another low-volume car that was getting difficult to support. Is parts supply likely to be an issue with the Honda roadster in 2030?

I've seen nice low mileage ones go up in value (or at least asking price) out here for at least a year, especially CRs. The grotty ones are still below $10k, but I have this feeling those are getting worse condition wise and there seem to be fewer around.

Pre-bean counter Honda used to be really good for parts availability, especially on the motorcycle side. As in, we don't have one of those anymore, but we'll make you one (for $ouch, reputedly). That's changed and I would suspect that S2000s would probably suffer more from that than, say, Civics simply because they made a lot more Civics and presumably a lot more spare parts.

What's parts availability like for an NSX? That should be a good guide for future parts availability for the S2k.

This brings up a few interesting points that I can see:

-The S2000 surely has the upper hand in the depreciation department.

-However, the ND will likely need less maintenance by virtue of being newer, which could help to offset some of the depreciation costs.

-In the parts department, from what I've seen, S2000 parts don't seem to be inexpensive to say the least. With it being a low production model that was discontinued 6-7 years ago, I can't see parts getting any cheaper or having an increased availability.

-Meanwhile, the ND is brand new, so parts aren't likely to be cheap just yet. However, it shares the same engine with the mass produced Mazda 3, so availability isn't likely to ever be an issue.

-While the ND is new, traditionally the Miata has been the best selling roadster of all time. Parts for NA and NB Miata's still seem to be plentiful. I see the ND continuing in that trend and maintaining its "best selling roadster" status.

Overall in ownership costs, I still see the Honda coming out ahead by virtue of its trend towards appreciation these days. However, I think when we factor in maintenance, repairs and long term cost of parts, the ND isn't as far behind as we might think financially. It would still be better to find a slightly used ND in a few month and let someone else take the massive initial depreciation hit though...

So, today I finally got a chance to test drive both of these cars back to back!

Temperatures were in the low 40's with no clouds in the sky (good weather for early January in Denver!), so it was a good day to put them through their paces. I drove a 2016 ND Miata Club w/Brembo & BBS package back to back with a 2005 AP2 Honda S2000.

Disclaimers:

-I'm in the Denver metro area; read- high elevation (5200 ft). The roads I took these cars on are tight canyon/mountain roads, with lots of elevation change; climbing to up over 7000+ ft in elevation!

-I drove these cars on different roads, but both of them easily helped me to identify what I wanted to know about them! I drove the ND up (and down) Lookout Mountain and I drove the S2000 down Deer Creek Canyon Rd. Both are filled with constantly changing corners, but I would say that the downhill portion of Lookout Mountain had more hairpins, while Deer Creek Canyon probably has more S-curves.

-The Miata was brand new. As such, it was not fully broken in and its ECU might not have fully adapted to our elevation. It will likely pickup a bit more power as time goes by.

-The S2000 had 95k miles on the clock. It appeared to be stock except for a set of aftermarket 17” wheels with stock sized all-season rubber (Falken Pro G4 A/S). I couldn't find any other traces of modification on it and it seemed to be pretty well maintained, as the car was in great shape despite its age and mileage.

-The roads were clear and the sun was out, but there was still snow on the shoulders of roads and on the last part of my test drive in the ND on the shadowed side of the mountain there were some places that still had small slivers of ice in the center of the lanes. There were also a few places on both roads that were damp from the melted snow. Note: the ND wore OEM summer rubber. As such, neither car was pushed past about 8/10ths.

-In both cars I was accompanied by salesmen. I got pretty lucky, as they were both pretty cool guys that encouraged me to enjoy the cars and didn't mind taking them for long drives in the mountains to test them! I usually just talk the salesmen into giving me a borrowed car agreement & a demo plate, but in these cases, it actually wasn't needed! Two guys at two different dealerships actually offered to have me take them down twisty mountain/canyon roads! When we were done, both of them offered to give me BCA's & demo plates so that I could take the car(s) home to show the little lady.... I only took one of them up on their offer! More on that later.

-It should be noted that both salesmen were full grown men and I'm not exactly small myself (6'2” ~210 lbs). The extra weight in the car, plus the addition of high altitude surely didn't help either car, but due to its dependence on light weight, it probably hurt the Miata to a greater degree.

Where to start? I'll break this down by category and try to give as much detail as I can recall:

Exterior I love the S2000 and think it is a very timeless design that will still look good in 20 years... however the ND Miata is a damn good looking car! Pictures don't do the Brembo/BBS package justice! The Honda is certainly timeless and unoffensive, but the Miata looks like something far more exotic in real life!

Interior space I thought that the numbers might be incorrect and the S2000 might actually be the larger car inside... I was right. Those interior measurements are a crock! The S2000 was more comfortable for my big frame in every way I could think of. The S2000's bolsters were absolutely perfect and didn't wear me down a bit, not even after well over an hour of test driving. The ND's seats weren't bad, but the bolsters seemed a bit more intrusive to me; maybe they'll be better after they break in a bit? The foot-wells in the ND were more narrow and intrusive; the ND's transmission tunnel/center console put more pressure on my right knee and there was something in the driver's door that kept jabbing me in the left leg.

If you put the top down, the frame of the ND's windshield seemed like it might sit just a tad bit higher than the S2000's (maybe 1/2”).... but with the top up the S2000 had a LOT more headroom. In the ND my hair was touching the soft-top; whereas in the S2000 there was about 1.5 inches between my head and the soft top. Needless to say I was MUCH more comfortable in the S2000. In the ND I felt cramped; I could deal with it, but it wasn't ideal. In the S2000 I fit like a glove; it was tight, but I had no complaints as I just felt like I was held in place really well.

Interior general They both have nice cabins for what they are! In the ND I didn't even turn on the stereo or play with any of the features, as I was more concerned with driving. Some people refer to the ND's interior as “simple and driver focused”... I think the S2000 takes that concept to an entirely different level, as all cockpit controls are directly in front of the driver. I didn't spend much time playing with either of the electronics, so I can't comment on how each of them work.

I drove both cars with tops down, windows up and heaters on full blast! In the cool Colorado air the ND seemed to do a better job of keeping the cabin nice and warm. This is where I got the impression that the Miata's windshield was slightly higher than the S2000's.

Now onto actual driving....

Engine/power/acceleration On paper they should be pretty close, as per previously posted numbers... in today's test drives, the S2000 felt considerably faster. Below 6000rpm they actually felt pretty similar... above 6000rpm the ND's power dropped off drastically, whereas the S2000 kicked into VTEC and rocketed to its 8000rpm redline! They both had great throttle response and were easy to rev-match.

Before I drove them, I thought the ND would have had a low-end torque advantage... I no longer think so. The ND is lighter and has a better torque/weight ratio, while having only 148 ft-lbs... but the bigger engine (2.2L vs 2.0L) in the AP2 S2000 and slight torque bump (162 ft-lbs) seemed to make up for it. I don't know if the same could have been said for the older AP1 S2000.

In terms of engine character, the S2000's engine is a gem! It sounds great, loves to rev and is fun to keep on-boil! The Miata's engine is pretty lifeless by comparison. Its not a bad mill and I'm sure there's plenty of power to be found in it, but its not nearly as entertaining or engaging.

Handling The Miata is very light weight and feels light... the steering is light and the car transitions easily. It feels a bit more “loose” and the rear end wants to rotate. Overall, it feels light and tossable....

However, the S2000 felt more confidence inspiring to me. It felt a bit heavier, but also more planted. I felt more comfortable pushing it. The suspension had considerably less body roll and transitions seemed to happen with more control. I don't know which one is faster through the corners, but I know which one put a bigger smile on my face- S2000!!

Steering on both of them is electric, so they're both a bit light on feel. They felt pretty similar, but the S2000's might have been a tad bit heavier, which is a good thing in my book.

Drivetrain The Miata is extremely easy to drive! The clutch is light, it had an intuitive catch point and I loved how easy it was the engage smoothly! I jumped right into the car and instantly felt like I had been driving the car for years. The shifter had nice short throws and was fun to work! I liked the short gear ratios, as they kept the car feeling lively and fun.

The S2000's clutch caught a bit high and engaged a bit more abruptly. It wasn't bad, but the Miata's was better. However, I still think the S2000 has the best shifter on the planet! Its seriously fun to row! The S2000 also has very short gearing, which makes it easy to keep the engine on boil, especially outside of first gear.

Brakes Both pedals were easy to modulate and offered good feedback... but neither car was pushed hard enough to induce fade, so its hard to draw any further conclusions.

Overall/Cliff Notes Both cars are a lot of fun, but I enjoyed the S2000 to a much greater degree! I smiled several times while driving the ND, but while driving the S2000 I couldn't wipe the huge grin off of my face! The major factors going for the S2000: the amazing engine, the extra handling confidence, the perfect shifter and of course the fact that I comfortably fit inside of it!

The Miata had several disadvantages: the biggest being that I felt more cramped inside of it and couldn't really get comfortable. Smaller drivers likely won't have this issue. The engine was also at a disadvantage as it wasn't fully broken in, it might not have adapted to my elevation and the extra weight in each car surely hurt the Miata to a greater degree. However, even with all of those things notwithstanding, it just didn't have the character of the S2000's F22 motor.

At the end of each test drive, both salesmen offered to give me a demo plate and take the car to the little lady.... I drove the ND first, but declined the solo drive afterward as I wanted to get to the S2000's dealership before the sun went down. I did however take them up on taking the S2000 out solo! At that point, I learned what I needed to know, but I was having so much fun I decided to take it for another fun run! If I would have had more time in the day when it was nice I likely would have taken both out for solo runs, but I'm confident that my verdict would have remained the same.

What really shocked me was just how solid the S2000 felt with 95k miles on the chassis. No creaks or rattles; everything felt tight. The interior and exterior held up really well and if I didn't know better, I wouldn't have believed the car was 10+ years old with nearly 100k on the clock. I plan on buying a much lower mileage car, so it gives me a lot of confidence about the car's longevity.

I've driven the AP2 S2000 before and was very impressed.... today I walked out the door thinking I would prefer the ND Miata and that maybe the AP2 S2000 wasn't as good as I remembered it being. Sometimes I'm happy to be wrong!

**Final disclaimer: I know that the ND Miata has a lot of potential. With the ND's softer suspension and conservatively tuned engine, I'm sure that simple power and suspension bolt-ons will make a much bigger difference on the ND than they would on the S2000. However, in this stock vs stock comparison, I prefer the S2000.

UPDATE: Drove the ND Miata again (Solo) for more detailed impressions

I had a bit of free time today and figured I would take the ND out for another spin. The plan was to try to test the car solo and slide the seat forward 1-2 clicks in order tilt the seat back a bit, in hopes that it might better accommodate my frame (6'2”, 210 lbs). So, I called the salesman I worked with last time and requested to take the car for another (solo) spin. He obliged without complaint. He had the car pulled up for me with a plate in the front window and a BCA filled out by the time I got there! This was the same 2016 Club manual w/Brembo & BBS package that I drove last time.

For reference, we got a bit of light snow yesterday, but by this afternoon, all of the main roads were clear and the sun was shining. It was a balmy 34 degrees F today, so not exactly perfect drop-top weight, but I figured it would be alright with the windows up, the heater blasting and the sun out.

First (second?) impressions: sliding the seat up just a bit and tilting it further back really does help. Am I comfortable? Meh, not so much, but it is an improvement over my last drive. I also raised the front part of the thigh support, which helped to make the seats more comfortable. My main complaints:

-While I “fit” per se, everything feels extremely cramped. I wouldn't want to take a road trip in the ND! Grabbing anything out of my pockets felt a lot like playing an intricate game of Tetris! -My right knee gets wedged up against the console/transmission tunnel and it causes me a bit of pain in my right knee. Admittedly, I've had problems with my right knee in the past, but the driving position exacerbates them. -My face feels like its just a few inches from the top of the windshield. I tried to remind myself to move my head back against the headrest, but continued to repeatedly find my head feeling closer than it should be to the windshield. This isn't a “fitment” issue per se, as the windshield is not limiting my movement; it just feels a bit unnerving to me. YMMV. -With the top up the car feels claustrophobic. My hair touches the soft top and any lateral movement results in the top of my head hitting the roof.

Overall, while I managed to fit inside of the ND and can operate the controls without major issues, I feel a lot like a gorilla riding a tricycle. Its just awkward and cramped. Unfortunately, this severely takes away from the fun factor of the car for me.

Now onto the rest of the drive... this time there was no extra passenger inside the car to slow it down, but I'm still stuck driving it at over 5000+ ft elevation. I spent roughly 45 minutes with the car and tried to pay close attention to how everything felt to me. Unfortunately, there was no back to back S2000 test drive today, but I've driven a few AP2's, so I'm confident in my ability to make subjective judgments about each car. My assessment:

-Engine/power/acceleration. 0-60 in the ND seems to happen pretty quickly! It's punchy enough to be entertaining at those speeds. It's far from the fastest car I've ever owned, and wouldn't really come close to keeping up with the acceleration in my stock '15 WRX at this elevation (boost helps a lot as altitude increases), but its just quick enough to be fun! The short wheelbase and open top help to give this car a strong sensation of speed, which is a great quality to have! It feels just a bit quicker than it actually is; which is a good thing!

Unfortunately, at highway speeds the ND feels pretty anemic. Keep in mind that I'm over 5000 ft elevation, and for every 1000 ft in elevation, an engine generally loses ~3% power/torque due to the lower air density. So up here the ND is losing 15+% power (more in the mountains/canyons). Boosted cars up here generally don't lose as much power and most correction calculators only use a “half correction factor” for them. It's assumed that NA engines loses nearly double the power that boosted cars do up here, although there's too many factors to list in that equation... but I digress.

The ND really felt like it lacked power as speeds increased. Not only in comparison to my WRX (unfair/boosted advantage), but also in comparison to the S2000, which felt significantly more powerful.

I spent a good amount of time varying the ND's throttle and RPM positions and overall, it just doesn't compare to the character of the S2000's engine. Its perfectly adequate and gets the job done, but it doesn't bring a huge smile to my face in the process like the S2000 does. I really feel as though Mazda should have thrown in a set of more aggressive cams, ported the head a bit and helped this motor breath up top! I know the aftermarket will have plenty of solutions, but I just think in a lightweight sports car like this, the engine should want to rev and sing and the 2.0L Skyactiv-G just doesn't.

Don't get me wrong, it has plenty of low and mid-range grunt. At lower speeds, the motor's mid-range helps it to get up to speed quickly and the low-end torque helps it to maintain freeway speeds with ease. It also seems like it would be a very forgiving engine to play with; but it lacks the high-end zing that I was hoping for. Again, I'm at a high elevation, so YMMV.

-Chassis/steering/handling. This time I paid much closer attention to the chassis and handling of the ND. I could be wrong, but the AP2 S2000's chassis feels stiffer. The ND seemed to have just a tad bit more cowl shake. Don't get me wrong, the ND is leagues ahead of the old NA/NB cars, but it didn't feel quite as stiff as the S2000... it could just be a perception thing. Or maybe part of the S2000's extra 500 lbs went towards extra bracing? Or maybe the S2000's X-frame really is just that stiff... I have no idea. It could just be a placebo effect, but I felt like the S2000 was just slightly stiffer.

I also noticed the body roll on the ND this time, while taking a few corners and trying to pay close attention to detail. It soaks up bumps easily, but I felt like the S2000 transitioned more quickly; the AP2 seemed more responsive to steering input. I felt the delay in the ND was mostly in the time the suspension took to set itself on its bump-stops. I preferred the S2000 in this respect. Although this is an easy fix: if I was buying a new ND, several suspension components would find themselves replaced in short order. At least a set of thicker sway bars, but likely a full set of decent coilovers. The chassis on the ND seems too good to waste on such a soft suspension. I know, there are plenty of people who are happy with the comfortable ride and have no intentions on tracking the ND. I wouldn't be one of those people. A stiffer Mazdaspeed version of this car would be a nice option for track junkies in my opinion.

The steering was light and accurate, but it felt pretty numb. The S2000's wasn't really any better, but it was more responsive. Maybe I'm just old school, but I really preferred the hydraulic steering racks in the old NC and my old NB MSM. I just can't feel what the front tires are doing through this new EPS setup.

I spent some time on the freeway today with a bit of a crosswind.... this car gets blown all over! The S2000's wheelbase is almost 4 inches longer (94.5” vs 90.9”) and it really makes a difference at highway speeds, as it felt more planted/stable. To be honest, the AP2 S2000 felt more planted just about everywhere. It might just be giving me a false sense of security, but all I know is that the AP2 felt more connected to the road. The ND felt more “floaty” by comparison, especially as speeds increased.

Don't get me wrong, the ND was still fun to pitch around! It's a lightweight car that feels like a lightweight car! The car feels like it has a ton of potential, but it needs a better suspension to complement the chassis IMO. I think at a low-speed autoX this car would be a riot to dodge cones with! It's definitely very agile to say the least. It could just use a reduction in body roll to help it stay planted and transition more easily.

Since I've already covered everything else in my last test drive, I'll stop there.

I think Mazda did a lot of things right with the ND: the looks, the lightweight chassis, the overall agility, the brakes (from what I felt), the drivetrain, the shifter, the gearing, the mid-range torque and certainly the value for your dollar among new cars!

However when compared against a car that was more expensive (when new) like the AP2 S2000, I've started to see what I view as the ND's shortcomings: the engine's lack character/top end power, the cramped interior for bigger guys, the soft suspension and its lack of steering feel (admittedly the S2000's steering feel isn't really any better, but I preferred the AP2 S2000's weighting).

Don't get me wrong, I still think the ND is a great car for someone that fits in it more comfortably than I do. I'm confident that the aftermarket can certainly address the engine and suspension complaints I have in short order. I would have been happy to have addressed those complaints myself, but I can't overcome a simple truth: the ND's interior just wasn't designed for guys my size.

I would still recommend the ND to a friend if asked; but after test driving both of them extensively my choice is pretty clear. Now all I have to do is find a clean, low mileage '06+ AP2 and let the fun begin!

You're here in Denver with me? Awesome. Both those cars are going to be dog slow up here, the S2k less so on VTEC. I'm sure the ND's engine will loosen up some, but don't expect a whole lot more power because of that...