New F150 Diesel option

frenchyd said:

Keith Tanner said:

You can have one of those. You just have to go up a size and stop by a different dealership.

I’d be happy with a Cummins but it would need to be in a regular cab short box  1/2 ton 

You know what that engine weighs, right? That's not a plausible combo. The engine alone is 25% of the GVWR of the vehicle (6,025 lb , taken from ramtrucks.com). Never mind the trans and axles that would be needed. You're just choosing it because you know it'll never happen and your bluff won't get called

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Yeh, but there are nice durable in line six diesels all over the world.   I really liked the old BMW.  While V8 or V6 diesel all tend to have relatively short lives.  

I suppose the problem is none of those meet current pollution rules.  

frenchyd said:

While V8 or V6 diesel all tend to have relatively short lives

Eh, I dunno about that.  There are plenty of V block diesels out there with a lot of miles on them.  However, outside of old 2 stroke Detroits, most of the super durable (read: wet sleeve / infinitely rebuildable) diesels have been I6s.  But the Cummins 6BT and its derivatives isn't wet sleeve, so there's not much about the basic architecture that makes it any longer lived in pickup truck service than the V6 / V8 diesel options.  It just happens to be a little more over-built for the application.  

One of the news channels this morning was saying it’ll cost between 2,400 and 4000 more than a comparable gas powered truck. 

Keith Tanner said:

And honestly, they're probably as much truck as a 3/4 ton 15 years ago.

 

Very much so. The latest EB F150s are rated for more towing capacity and more payload than the '96 Powerstroke F250 I had.  And I guarantee they've got better brakes. 

OTOH, if I was really going to be pulling that kind of weight every day, all the time - you bet I'd buy a diesel. But probably not a little V6 one.

STM317 said:

In reply to alfadriver :

It might also give some of the "real trucks don't have gas v6s" crowd an enticing option since the only thing that says "truck" more than a v8 is a diesel.

12 years ago, I never thought a gas, turbo, high tech v6 would ever be popular in a truck.  Based on the assumption that people like you suggest exist.

I was very, very wrong.  V6 Turbos outsell V8's so much that it very much questions even investing in a V8.

4K extra and I can get it in a XL/XLT in fleet and yeah I would be interested for the office and myself.  Would pull everything we have, be easier to park. Would be better with the weight of the liftgates as well. 

4K on top of a lariat and I would get a Ram Eco. 

rslifkin said:

frenchyd said:

While V8 or V6 diesel all tend to have relatively short lives

Eh, I dunno about that.  There are plenty of V block diesels out there with a lot of miles on them.  However, outside of old 2 stroke Detroits, most of the super durable (read: wet sleeve / infinitely rebuildable) diesels have been I6s.  But the Cummins 6BT and its derivatives isn't wet sleeve, so there's not much about the basic architecture that makes it any longer lived in pickup truck service than the V6 / V8 diesel options.  It just happens to be a little more over-built for the application.  

It's been pointed out to me that I6 engines have more main bearings (7) than V8s (5) or V6s (4), so there's that. They're also inherently better balanced. Dunno if the latter has any effect on lifespan but the former might.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I'd think the bearing count thing could be adjusted for by using bigger bearings in the V6 / V8 to achieve a similar bearing area vs hp ratio.  And the I6 also has the disadvantage of needing to worry about flex along longer crank and cam shafts.  

rslifkin said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I'd think the bearing count thing could be adjusted for by using bigger bearings in the V6 / V8 to achieve a similar bearing area vs hp ratio.  And the I6 also has the disadvantage of needing to worry about flex along longer crank and cam shafts.  

But you can increase the size of the I6 bearings as well! This is not a "I'd rather be Cummin than Strokin'" post, just an interesting theory as to why the big sixes run so long. I can see flex being an issue, although the balance of the engine might address that somewhat. I'll have to look into firing orders. There used to be a fantastic website that showed the imbalances in each engine type, but I haven't been able to find it for years.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

A V8 has a second order imbalance that is impossible to eliminate while an in line six is in balance.  

A 60 degree V6 doesn’t suffer from the second order imbalance problem that’s 90 degree V6 does.

In reply to rslifkin :

Bigger bearings have their own problems

While I can see an I6 being more long lived due to the advantages mentioned I don't see where a V8 would be at a huge disadvantage when you talking about truck engines.  I think the I6 is  more popular for HD truck engines due to it's simple design, room for the external stuff like the turbo, easy to work on as most everything is access able, and the length is not an issue on a HD truck. That being said the 7.3 PS has been known to go over 500K miles with no internal repairs needed, and a few have gone almost 1M miles before they died.  I don't think that happens when it's used in a mid-duty truck as many were by IH but in Ford vans, etc. that see a lot of highway miles.

Modern pollution controls have reduced the life of modern diesel but I guess it's something we just have to live with if we want to continue to breath clean air.

Slowly rolls into the superiority of the jag inline 6 that GM based their atlas off of (no sources for this claim)...

There really does seem to be something to be said for I6s and reliability, anecdotally speaking anyways. The engines that usually accompany the phrase "...the only thing left will be cockroaches and ____." seem to be straight sixes most frequently. Cummins 12v, AMC/ Jeep 258/4.0, Chrysler slant 6, various BMW and Mercedes engines, ect. 

Diesel F150 is cool I guess, but I'm sure they're all going to end up in $60k trucks. I have a hard time seeing many businesses justifying that for a work truck, or really anything much more than a novelty for high end buyers. The frequency and magnitude of potential repair costs on the newer, emissions controlled diesels is off putting as well.

Furious_E said:

There really does seem to be something to be said for I6s and reliability, anecdotally speaking anyways. The engines that usually accompany the phrase "...the only thing left will be cockroaches and ____." seem to be straight sixes most frequently. Cummins 12v, AMC/ Jeep 258/4.0, Chrysler slant 6, various BMW and Mercedes engines, ect.

Except for when they're not reliable.  Like any Jeep 4.0 made in 96 or later.  They just randomly break pistons sometimes for no reason at all.  And some of the later years had bad heads where 20 - 30% of them will develop a crack on the top side and piss coolant right into the oil. 

My main reason for never buying a diesel was reinforced when I was at the gas station today.

Regular 87 octane - $2.29.9

Diesel - $2.93.9

Add that to the extra ~$5K higher purchase price and it doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

Strizzo said:

One of the news channels this morning was saying it’ll cost between 2,400 and 4000 more than a comparable gas powered truck. 

You can't get an eco diesel ram for less than 47k, as per their website. I'm sure the Ford version will be in the same bracket.

Hal said:

My main reason for never buying a diesel was reinforced when I was at the gas station today.

Regular 87 octane - $2.29.9

Diesel - $2.93.9

Add that to the extra ~$5K higher purchase price and it doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

In California diesel is cheaper than gas. But that's where saving money stops in that state!

simplecat said:

Strizzo said:

One of the news channels this morning was saying it’ll cost between 2,400 and 4000 more than a comparable gas powered truck. 

You can't get an eco diesel ram for less than 47k, as per their website. I'm sure the Ford version will be in the same bracket.

If they're like other half-tons, they're $10k off MSRP already.

Diesel vs gas moves around. Diesel is a lot more consistent across the country, gas varies a lot. I don't know if this is due to the mobility of the biggest customers or more consistent standards across the country. I didn't get a diesel for the fuel economy, although it's a nice bonus. I got it because of the way they pull.

rslifkin said:

Furious_E said:

There really does seem to be something to be said for I6s and reliability, anecdotally speaking anyways. The engines that usually accompany the phrase "...the only thing left will be cockroaches and ____." seem to be straight sixes most frequently. Cummins 12v, AMC/ Jeep 258/4.0, Chrysler slant 6, various BMW and Mercedes engines, ect.

Except for when they're not reliable.  Like any Jeep 4.0 made in 96 or later.  They just randomly break pistons sometimes for no reason at all.  And some of the later years had bad heads where 20 - 30% of them will develop a crack on the top side and piss coolant right into the oil. 

None of the above are without their flaws, just making the point that a lot of I6s get brought up in the discussion of 'most durable engines'.

I'm intrigued, but I won't be the one purchasing a new 60k truck either.  I think RAM sold the ecodiesel in the higher trim trucks and eventually offered them in lower-spec models over time.  I'm hoping Ford does the same.

simplecat said:

Strizzo said:

One of the news channels this morning was saying it’ll cost between 2,400 and 4000 more than a comparable gas powered truck. 

You can't get an eco diesel ram for less than 47k, as per their website. I'm sure the Ford version will be in the same bracket.

For those that don't want/need anything fancy, any "Tradesman" trim Ram other than the 4x2 standard cab short box can be had with the Eco Diesel...So get your diesel powered 4x2 standard cab long box starting at $32,160.

Hal said:

My main reason for never buying a diesel was reinforced when I was at the gas station today.

Regular 87 octane - $2.29.9

Diesel - $2.93.9

Add that to the extra ~$5K higher purchase price and it doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

Factor in the real world fuel economy difference and the dollars of fuel per mile driven will still probably be about the same, and even possibly cheaper on the diesel...Add that to the resale being similarly higher.  

Furious_E said:

Cummins 12v, AMC/ Jeep 258/4.0, Chrysler slant 6, various BMW and Mercedes engines, ect. 

etc = Ford 300.

frenchyd said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

A V8 has a second order imbalance that is impossible to eliminate...

A minimal one...I would expect no more problematic than not having a fully counterweighted crank on an I6 to minimize main bearing loads.