volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse UltraDork
9/7/17 8:06 a.m.

Working on a little project here, involving the 460 I built (and you all helped me bench build, thanks!) and raced at LeMons this year.  We're leaving the engine basically alone, except we want to move it back about 6" in the car.  (The reasons for this I can't get into right now, but for now, just go with it).  The main obstacle to moving the engine back is the front sump of the oil pan interfering with the front suspension crossmember.  The initial, easy solution was thought o go with a mid or rear sump oil pan, but again, for *reasons* that won't work.  So we thought modifying the front crossmember was the solution, but that seemed difficult and risky.  

After thinking about it for some time, the best solution seems to be to flipthe pump pickup around to the side and forward, and modify the oil pan, essentially making an extreme-front sump pan.  Some pictures to help illustrate:

The pan can be cut along the pencilled lines, removing the back 6" or so of the sump, and then that bit of sump can be flipped aorund and welded onto the front of the pan, making a front kick-out.  Adding some side kick outs to increase the pan capacity to 6 or 7 quarts seems like a good idea, too.

Thoughts?

 

jimbbski
jimbbski Dork
9/7/17 4:28 p.m.

Why don't you look at just any FOX Mustang with the 5.0L engine.  It has a front mounted oil pump and a rear sump pickup.  They  just extended the pickup tube to the rear of the block . No reason to go through the pan and then back to get to the other end of the block.

 

They kept a "mini" sump in the front due to the oil pump but the stock "mini" sump is deeper then required.  I know this as I had to mod a Canton oil pan on my Mustang when I set the engine back in the chassis.

Trackmouse
Trackmouse SuperDork
9/7/17 4:36 p.m.

Ah, the ole "willie j. Bottomtooth" I see. That'll rustle some jimmies. 

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/7/17 8:54 p.m.

Seems like a solid plan, you'll only have to worry about oil starvation under acceleration which sees the lightest Gs anyway. A trap door baffle might be a good idea.

You might also want to check out the G13A's oiling system. It has a super long pickup tube (front pump, rear sump) and it works almost well enough to put into an aerobatic plane.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin PowerDork
9/7/17 9:10 p.m.

I can't quite follow from the drawings what's happening.  If you are making the pickup longer, just make sure its braced adequately so it doesn't fracture in use.

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse UltraDork
9/8/17 5:16 a.m.

OK, some clarification:

The pan in the pictures is a front sump, and the pickup mounts tot he bottom of the pump.  The tube goes down, and then back to the pickup.  The truck 460 pan had a long tube, similar to the 5.0 Mustang engine, jimbbski, to a rear sump, but as I said earlier a rear sump won't work for this application.  The steering is behind the crossmember so a rear sump would have to go VERY far back to clear all the steering linkages.  Before I started all this I made a chart of about 30 measurements of various geometry in the engine/ frame interface.  

The pickup as seen in the above pics won't be changed, just swiveled around to the passenger side and front, and the pan jutted out like Willy J Bottomtooth there.  wink  The pickup will be towards the back of the new sump, so it should be bathed in oil under acceleration.  Under cornering, if the side kick-outs are shorter than the oil level in the pan, then the oil should be contained enough to keep the pickup fully immersed.  The oily issue is under braking, the oil will tend to slosh forward.  I plan on either some baffling or a trap door (as GameboyRMH suggested) to alleviate that.  

I cut metal the other night.  I'll take pictures and post here soon.  

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse UltraDork
9/11/17 12:59 p.m.

So, here is the formerly-rear portion of the sump flipped around and sort-of stuck to the front, for mock up purposes:

Also notice a bunch more of the flat portion has been cut out, since the sump had a long radius here that would interfere with the crossmember.  The goal is to try to lower the engine in the frame as much as possible, too.

Here, I welded on a piece of flat steel up to where the sump will begin, and sliced off the front where the sump will jut out. 

I've since welded on the front sump.  I think I've decided on one side kick-out, due to the location of the pickup (which will be on the passenger side of the pan) and a horizontal baffle over the driver's side to prevent oil slosh-up.  Stay tuned...

noddaz
noddaz GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
9/11/17 6:26 p.m.

Looks like you have got it beat...  Keep going..

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse UltraDork
9/12/17 7:45 a.m.

In reply to noddaz :

Thanks for the encouragement.  Its fun working on something that's different and challenging.  wink

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse UltraDork
9/18/17 9:52 a.m.

Side-By-Side Comparison:

SkinnyG
SkinnyG SuperDork
9/18/17 9:57 a.m.

If you cut the firewall and set the engine back a foot and a half, you 'd save yourself the work of modifying the pan! laugh

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse UltraDork
9/18/17 10:34 a.m.

In reply to SkinnyG :

And re-cage the car, and move the driver's seat back, and... cheeky

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse UltraDork
9/20/17 8:21 a.m.

Some pictures from last night.  Completed the welding on the pan, and happy to say that it does hold water.  Literally.
As a friend once told me, they might say that I shouldn't weld, but that can't say that I didn't weld.

The Volvo 122 hood, that gave so selflessly for the construction of the oil pan.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/20/17 9:33 a.m.

Looks good! I think you'd be OK with just 2 trap doors, one where the pan drops off into the "deep end" and one along the edge of the part that kicks out to the side.

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse UltraDork
9/20/17 10:10 a.m.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

Due to the size and placement of the oil pump pickup (pictures forthcoming) trap dors aren't really feasible. But, the oil level in the pan should come up to the top of the kickouts, so sloshing won't really be able to uncover the pickup. That sump'll hold 6 quarts, too. The pickup lives about 1/2" off the bottom of the deep end. 

iceracer
iceracer UltimaDork
9/20/17 1:21 p.m.

dry sump devil

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse UltraDork
9/20/17 4:36 p.m.

In reply to iceracer :

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

iceracer
iceracer UltimaDork
9/20/17 5:30 p.m.

Just kidding.    Nice job on the pan.   Use gasoline to test for leaks, it has less surface tension than water, it will show a leak that water doesn't.

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse UltraDork
9/20/17 7:07 p.m.

In reply to iceracer :

Thanks! Good idea. Gasoline will clean the pan better, to ;-)

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse UltraDork
9/21/17 10:52 a.m.

Of course...when the gasoline finds a leak, and you have to repair it...you gotta get all that gasoline out of there before you, um, weld.  

Next time, I tried windshield washer fluid.  Cheaper than gasoline, and not nearly as flammable.  

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
9/21/17 10:54 a.m.

You don't have to get the gasoline out, it just makes striking the arc that much more exciting!

Crackers
Crackers HalfDork
9/21/17 11:16 a.m.
volvoclearinghouse said:

Of course...when the gasoline finds a leak, and you have to repair it...you gotta get all that gasoline out of there before you, um, weld.  

Next time, I tried windshield washer fluid.  Cheaper than gasoline, and not nearly as flammable.  

Since the pan isn't enclosed it won't contain vapors like a tank would. Also, since you'll only have fuel in it for a few minutes at a time there won't be any varnish built up to continue releasing vapors. 

One thing that concerns me is adequate drain from the rear of the pan to your sump. If it's too flat you may end up with excessive pooling in the rear to the point it partially submerges the crank. 

That kind of pooling could potentially cause oil starvation if you're not anticipating it. 

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse UltraDork
9/21/17 11:53 a.m.
tuna55 said:

You don't have to get the gasoline out, it just makes striking the arc that much more exciting!

The first arc I struck it ignited a small pool of gasoline on the floor.  Since there was nothing around it, I paused and watched it for a while before it burned itself out.  It was sort of like camping, except I didn't have any marshmallows.  

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse UltraDork
9/21/17 11:57 a.m.

In reply to Crackers :

The extension of the back portion I made at the same angle downward as the original portion.  It just extends forward an additional 5" or so.  So, unless the acceleration of the car exceeds the gravitational force on the oil, acting through whatever angle that is, the oil should drain down.  Or, unless I drive up a long, extended, steep hill.

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse UltraDork
9/27/17 7:09 a.m.

So...here's the pan, back on the 460:

Here's a side view, showing how the new portion of the pan, behind the sump, slopes down towards the deep end:

The pickup, turned 180 degrees, and the dipstick.  The freshly scribed mark at the "R" in "WARRANTY" indicates the level at the top of the sump, for reference.

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