Is there any advantage or reason to have an open cockpit or a closed cockpit in protype/cart/F1. The new concept photos made me think about that and then the Audi LeMans Prototypes that are open cockpit vs the ones that are closed.
I would assume the closed cockpits are safer, but other than that why?
my guess is closed cockpit gives a huge aerodynamic advantage to the car, and a huge advantage to the driver that they don't have to fight wind forces on their helmet all race long.
Closed cockpit is safer as well as things that come off other cars have more to hit before they hit you in the head and kill you. I am amazed that F1 is still open.
Another problem with (non-F1) convertable type road cars is that if the engine goes bang and a fire results, the flames will often get swept forward by the rotating wind "rotor" right into the cab.
I experienced what that could be like (thankfully without the fire) when I was doing a high speed run and an oil system O-ring blew out in the engine. While the oil spray existed the rear of the car, the wind rotor swept it right back into the cab. Had oil all over the place, even on the inside of the windshield. Could have been way worse. On a track it's "somewhat" mitigated by wearing a firesuit, but then you get to play the game "how long can you hold your breath."
Audi ran open cockpit cars for years before giving in to an enclosed cockpit. Driver safety is a huge consideration. For cars that race in the rain, it's also a great benefit to not have a soaking wet race car driver. There has been lots of talk about Indy and F1 cars going to closed cockpits since Massa's incident years ago, and Justin Wilson this year. I think it's inevitable closed cockpits will be introduced. Some of the F1 fantasy cars look pretty awesome, but the line between F1 and Prototype cars will be much smaller.
Closed cockpit is definitely safer in terms of driver protection, but potentially makes it more difficult for a driver to escape from a vehicle after a crash in the event that it's on fire. Overall a win, though.
F1 has open cockpits for the same reason it has open wheels -- tradition. The cars would be faster and safer if both were enclosed.
The closed cockpit prototype cars at LeMans have a temperature limit that they must stay below. In 2007 they were starting to look at it an offered a slight increase in restrictor size if you ran an AC system. We did not implement it because the potential AC system failure would have required fixing Ac during the race to keep below the temp limits.
On the rain/wet driver issue, if there is a leak in the cabin of a closed car the heat and lack of air exchange result in the window fogging up on the inside and potential electrical issues from the moisture. Been there done that at the Daytona 24hr. Changed the windshield a few times during the race trying to seal it better.
On the issue of getting out of a crashed car, if the car is upside down, open wheel cars are still hard to get out of, while the closed cars should still allow exit if the doors open to the side.
Ice racers always keep their defrosters working.
Why wouldn't a closed race car have sufficient fresh air circulation ?
stafford1500 wrote: On the issue of getting out of a crashed car, if the car is upside down, open wheel cars are still hard to get out of, while the closed cars should still allow exit if the doors open to the side.
Do you think a modified version of what is being used in NHRA Top Fuel might be feasible for an open wheel car? They seem like they would have the same types of egress problems, perhaps even worse considering the roll cage hoops over the driver's head that aren't present in most open wheel cars.
STM317 wrote:stafford1500 wrote: On the issue of getting out of a crashed car, if the car is upside down, open wheel cars are still hard to get out of, while the closed cars should still allow exit if the doors open to the side.Do you think a modified version of what is being used in NHRA Top Fuel might be feasible for an open wheel car? They seem like they would have the same types of egress problems, perhaps even worse considering the roll cage hoops over the driver's head that aren't present in most open wheel cars.
They aren't?
Flight Service wrote:STM317 wrote:They aren't?stafford1500 wrote: On the issue of getting out of a crashed car, if the car is upside down, open wheel cars are still hard to get out of, while the closed cars should still allow exit if the doors open to the side.Do you think a modified version of what is being used in NHRA Top Fuel might be feasible for an open wheel car? They seem like they would have the same types of egress problems, perhaps even worse considering the roll cage hoops over the driver's head that aren't present in most open wheel cars.
He was talking about something more like this:
But yeah, open cockpits are kept around for the sake of tradition, to the detriment of safety and performance. And arguably looks too - some of the closed cockpit concepts look damn good.
It'll be interesting to see what they come up with for incorporating 'doors' on a formula car body, that can be opened enough to allow for egress when the car is upside down.
Driven5 wrote: It'll be interesting to see what they come up with for incorporating 'doors' on a formula car body, that can be opened enough to allow for egress when the car is upside down.
I don't think useable doors are doable. You are so deep and horizonal inside the nose in a Formula car that there is no getting out of the cockpit if you can't extend your body upward
Flight Service wrote:STM317 wrote:They aren't?stafford1500 wrote: On the issue of getting out of a crashed car, if the car is upside down, open wheel cars are still hard to get out of, while the closed cars should still allow exit if the doors open to the side.Do you think a modified version of what is being used in NHRA Top Fuel might be feasible for an open wheel car? They seem like they would have the same types of egress problems, perhaps even worse considering the roll cage hoops over the driver's head that aren't present in most open wheel cars.
Like Gameboy said, I was referring to bars directly above the driver's head, not parts of the vehicle that may be higher than the driver's head. Most open wheel drivers can get out now by simultaneously lifting themselves straight up and sliding their feet back. Exiting a Top Fuel car or Funny Car is a bit more involved since you also have to lean forward so that your head clears the cage above first, and the lift/slide your way out. If they can get out with canopies in place, I don't really see why open wheel drivers couldn't.
WildScotsRacing wrote:Driven5 wrote: It'll be interesting to see what they come up with for incorporating 'doors' on a formula car body, that can be opened enough to allow for egress when the car is upside down.I don't think useable doors are doable. You are so deep and horizonal inside the nose in a Formula car that there is no getting out of the cockpit if you can't extend your body upward
That's why I'm curious what the proposed solution(s) would be.
At a spectator standpoint of open wheel it was always cool to watch the driver fight the wheel. Nowadays how cars are built it is rarely seen. If indycar or F1 went to closed, they probably should just do exactly what sports car has already done, rather then re-event the wheel.
Prof Sid Watkins was adamantly against closed cockpits on safety grounds as he was concerned both about driver egress and emergency access and removal.
The last I heard they were considering some small, thin vertical or angled bars or rods. Thin enough not to hamper driver vision but strong enough to deflect something like a wheel and tire or part of a car (Wilson or Surtees accidents) that wouldn't have helped Massa though. Maybe a deflection screen too?
Another issue I see with closed Formula cockpits is from suffocation if the car goes on its lid, and there is a fire. If the wind is light or from the wrong direction, it could put smoke/fumes in the cockpit. And just as bad, how is a driver going to survive the cockpit Halon bottle going off if he is upside down with no way to get the canopy off. Hmm, suffocate, or burn? Decisions, decisions...
It might require some changes in the safety car tool kit, but based on my aircraft experience, I don't think there's any emergency access and removal issues that couldn't be solved with the appropriate tools and "CUT HERE" markings. Think something like a portable plunge routers.
Topside marks might interfere with the sponsorship stickers though
WildScotsRacing wrote: Another issue I see with closed Formula cockpits is from suffocation if the car goes on its lid, and there is a fire. If the wind is light or from the wrong direction, it could put smoke/fumes in the cockpit. And just as bad, how is a driver going to survive the cockpit Halon bottle going off if he is upside down with no way to get the canopy off. Hmm, suffocate, or burn? Decisions, decisions...
Is there a reason why they couldn't duct outside air into the helmets like they do in tons of other racing series? I know helmets are far from air tight, and the outside air ducts are typically used for cooling instead of breathing, but it might be enough fresh air to keep someone from suffering severe smoke inhalation or worse for a minute or two until they could be extricated.
In reply to Karacticus:
I've always wondered why that was. We do a good enough job hiding those marks on commercial jets paint jobs when viewed from a distance. I don't see why it would be an issue on cars.
In reply to STM317:
What is going to provide the fresh airflow into the helmet once your car broken and on it's top? The helmet intake would be sucking in the fumes in the same situation.
WildScotsRacing wrote: In reply to STM317: What is going to provide the fresh airflow into the helmet once your car broken and on it's top? The helmet intake would be sucking in the fumes in the same situation.
I'm sure smarter people than me could figure it out, but here's how I see it. There would presumably be a duct somewhere on the top side of the car, perhaps even in the canopy itself. In the unfortunate case of going shiny side down, the duct would be near the ground. In your scenario with fumes filling the cabin, there would probably be more fumes outside, but the fumes outside would have an entire atmosphere to spread out in, and more importantly, they'd rise up into that atmosphere away from the ground and the fresh air duct.
Now of course, there is no perfect safety device or design, so there may be situations where it wouldn't work as planned, but it seems like a better idea than what they're currently using to me. Especially if they can make some design changes to keep the cars from going upside down as often to begin with. Like I said, it's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison but some Top Fuel drivers already use canopies and haven't had any issues getting out and it's probably more difficult to get out of a chassis like that than the current open wheel designs.
Keep in mind that crash-caused fires are extremely rare in F1 these days. In fact, I don't remember seeing a single one in the last 15 years -- yes there have been fires, but they've pretty much all been related to an engine failure with the car still rolling on its wheels and the driver able to egress normally.
OTOH, I can think of at least two major head injuries that would have been prevented by closed-cockpit cars (Massa and Maria de Villota). This would argue that closed cockpits are a net win, even if there's a small increase in risk related to cars that are upside-down and on fire.
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