Paging David Wallens (Miata vs. 911)

BoxheadTim wrote: I don't think you'll be losing the fun, but an older 911 drives very different to a front-engined car and you have to adjust your technique accordingly. Basically you have to enter the corner slower that you probably would in a front engined car of similar power and handling as you don't want that heavy weight behind the rear axle to get the car out of shape, but you can also step on the accelerator much harder and earlier than in a front engined car because you have so much more traction compared to a front-engined car. Oh, and you never, ever lift while cornering unless you want to exit the corner tangentially and usually backwards. Once you're set up in a corner, there is only one way the loud pedal goes and that is down.

That doesn't sound any different than my miata unless you are trying to induce oversteer

It's pretty amazing that we would even had a discussion comparing a Miata and a 911. I'd say Mazda is definitely punching above it's weight class here. Kudos to Mazda for even achieving this comparison and not being laughed out of the room.

RE: Driving a 911...

Platitudes about what you can and cannot do with a rear engined car fade pretty quickly as muscle memory re-tunes itself. It has different strengths and weaknesses due to weight balance but truthfully - if you are driving the car like you ought to, by keeping it balanced with all of the available inputs and staying ahead of it then it will be no different than any new car at the track. Take it easy and pay attention to the butt dyno for a hundred laps or so and it will be fine. You can certainly lift mid-corner in a 911 to adjust your line. I do it all the time. Sometimes you have to make an abrupt change to go around another car or to miss a pile of gravel, coolant or woodchuck - you just have to manage the weight transfer very quickly and pro-actively. You don't just lift off the throttle like a switch - you don't do that in any car - you adjust all the inputs a little differently to keep it balanced. Your feet and hands will be more busy in a mid or rear engined car than a typical "barbell" car but you will also feel more awesome when you get something right (and know immediately when you don't :) )

What I'm saying is: You DO drive a 911 differently but its a natural consequence of understanding how to balance any car. There are no absolutes.

A lot of that reputation for tail happiness, while not myth, is really based on the early short wheelbase cars. Once they stretched the wheelbase and went to wider rear wheels and tires, a lot of that went away. I've intentionally lifted mid corner with my '87, just so I could learn the car's limits. It was surprisingly benign, and the suspension is unmodified.

Professional driver, closed course...

Thanks for the input Dave! There is something about a Porsche that's just...different. It feels different, smells different, and basically just feels "alive". While I've never owned a 911, I spent track time in them and owned other models from the P brand, and enjoyed every minute.

Which brings me to the driving dynamics. I spent most of my 25 year "career" in rear or mid engine cars. There's something alive in them that no other configuration can offer. It's that delicate rotation with the throttle, setting up your slip angle, putting your power down before anyone else, it's just magical. I've enjoyed driving cars like Vipers, Corvettes, and yes Miatas, but for pure driving fun, the engine needs to be behind your head.

So, to wrap this up, my original thinking was, is it worth it to spend the extra money on a 911 and risk it occasionally on track, or pick something more "disposable" and track the snot out of it? It's a difficult question to answer. These days I'm not really in a position to have both like I used to, so I'm being more careful in my choice.

And just like Dave, I think the answer is a 911. I've never had one, always wanted one, and they are not getting any cheaper. And it's definitely on my bucket list. They have good club support as well. A quick digital shopping spree this past week though reveals they are seriously on the move price wise. Low '20's seem to be the going rate for a nice coupe, while the targas are about 5 grand plus less. Now all I have to do is sell a house.

In reply to racerdave600:

I think you just need to own 8 Italian cars again...

racerdave600 wrote: So, to wrap this up, my original thinking was, is it worth it to spend the extra money on a 911 and risk it occasionally on track, or pick something more "disposable" and track the snot out of it? It's a difficult question to answer. These days I'm not really in a position to have both like I used to, so I'm being more careful in my choice.

It is a tough call, really - you can have a lot of fun in any car but you still have to spend money to get it to the track. You can find the sub-$10k SC Targa like Woody did and add a little elbow grease to make a track car. They really don't need a ton of aftermarket parts to make them competent and they seem to take a metric E36 M3 ton of abuse over a long period of time before they need expensive love (assuming what you start with didn't already). So... likely a choice between a $5-8k Miata vs... $11-15k for a 911? I think if you are limiting yourself to a choice between only those two the nod still goes to Porsche based on greater performance & intangibles of the experience mentioned above.

I've set my budget at $10k for a track car, or double that for something nicer. If I go 911, I only want a coupe, no targa. It's a preference on my part really and nothing against them, but if I go that route, I want what I want. At that point, it will be more than just a track car.

If I went Miata, it would pretty much be track only, as I already have a Cooper S and it is no more fun to drive on the street. The 911 on the other hand is so different that I would be using it for additional purposes.

I suppose it all comes back to how much time I want to spend on track vs. everything else. After much consideration and at the moment, the everything else has the nod.