Can someone give me the idiots primer to Ford's idea behind a 427, 428 and 429 engines? Are they related, etc.
Can someone give me the idiots primer to Ford's idea behind a 427, 428 and 429 engines? Are they related, etc.
Ford 427 and 428 are both in the FE family engines and the 429 is in the 385 engine family and related to the 460 IIRC.
I know it's Wiki, but they have some decent reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_FE_engine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_385_engine
93EXCivic wrote: Ford 427 and 428 are both in the FE family engines and the 429 is in the 385 engine family and related to the 460 IIRC.
This is correct. cheaper to build hp w/ the 385 family (545 cubes?).
Correct, the 427 & 428 are FE's. The 427 is the earlier motor with the same stroke as the 390 & 406. The 428 came out in the late '60's. Has a smaller bore than the 427 (closer to the 406) and a longer stroke. The smaller bore was easier for Ford to manage with machining the castings in the '60's.
The 429 came out later. I think '69 was the first year. It's part of the 385 family (different block than the FE's) and is the smaller sibling of the 460.
As to why Ford would develop so many different engines with close to the same displacement, I can't say. I'll leave that to a Ford historian.
I won't repeat what others have said, because it's all correct. I'll just add from experience that if you're going to build one of these, in most cases these days a 429/460 is a better way to go. The FE's, for all the glory they got because of Cobra's, etc.. weren't very good breathing engines. In fact, depending on what you're doing, a 351 can be stroked to 427 cu in, and in many cases is a better option than a big block. Now, do you want to get into 351W vs 351C vs 351M engines?
Don't forget the Cammer!
http://ford400.100webcustomers.com/v8sohc427.html
429s and 460's are plentiful and cheap, still. Best bang for your performance buck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2bOC7x-sdI&feature=channel&list=UL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc8A2tx2nAM
Total cost of the engine build was under $500- the engine and trans was a net cost of $126- $626 for the lincoln, and we sold the drivetrain-less body for $500.
bravenrace wrote: Now, do you want to get into 351W vs 351C vs 351M engines?
No, I've had enough for today thank you.
But when we bring up the 351 engines, can we discuss the 352 too?
I saw on the wiki that Ford basically had three engine sizes, small medium and large block. As opposed to chivy which only had small and large. And the Ford 427 was really 425.
spitfirebill wrote:bravenrace wrote: Now, do you want to get into 351W vs 351C vs 351M engines?No, I've had enough for today thank you. But when we bring up the 351 engines, can we discuss the 352 too? I saw on the wiki that Ford basically had three engine sizes, small medium and large block. As opposed to chivy which only had small and large. And the Ford 427 was really 425.
The 352 was also in the FE family.....the fe 427 was basically the go to option for factory drag packs until 69.
Shoot, Ford can't even leave the same engine the same. The 302/5.0 has had what, three? different firing orders, roller vs non, Cleveland vs Windor, etc, etc.
They never learned their lesson, either (hello 4.6 "modular" engines...).
Anywho, yes, the 427 is a smaller bore 406-based motor. The 428 is actually the better choice (and most BB Cobra's actually had 428's) due to it's larger bore (therefore larger valves, better breathing, lower piston speed, etc, etc) out of the FE family.
The 385-series is the "best" BBF though. 429's are getting kind of scarce, but 460's are still out there and you can build them to insane sizes (~540ish IIRC). My dad has a buddy that does motors and has 600+ HP one (n/a) in his 71 Mach 1. That car scared the daylights out of me!
Javelin wrote: Anywho, yes, the 427 is a smaller bore 406-based motor. The 428 is actually the better choice (and most BB Cobra's actually had 428's) due to it's larger bore (therefore larger valves, better breathing, lower piston speed, etc, etc) out of the FE family.
I think you have it backwards.....the 428 was longer stroke and smaller bore.....hence why it was the torque monster of them.....
yamaha wrote:Javelin wrote: Anywho, yes, the 427 is a smaller bore 406-based motor. The 428 is actually the better choice (and most BB Cobra's actually had 428's) due to it's larger bore (therefore larger valves, better breathing, lower piston speed, etc, etc) out of the FE family.I think you have it backwards.....the 428 was longer stroke and smaller bore.....hence why it was the torque monster of them.....
Ah, yep, sorry about that. Damn Ford motors are just too confusing! 
Javelin wrote:yamaha wrote:Ah, yep, sorry about that. Damn Ford motors are just too confusing!Javelin wrote: Anywho, yes, the 427 is a smaller bore 406-based motor. The 428 is actually the better choice (and most BB Cobra's actually had 428's) due to it's larger bore (therefore larger valves, better breathing, lower piston speed, etc, etc) out of the FE family.I think you have it backwards.....the 428 was longer stroke and smaller bore.....hence why it was the torque monster of them.....
they aren't that bad......well, aside from the M(for mexican) designated 351/400(they're junk). Personally, a better story would be how long has the Chevy 350 not been a 350cu engine. 
In reply to yamaha:
Pfft, I think more engines are not the advertised size than are. Ford 5.0 = 4.9, Chevy 396 = 402, Mazda 13B Rotary = who the ef knows, 5.7 LS1 = 348, etc, etc.
427's were designed mostly for NASCAR. They worked HORRIBLY for drag racing, unless you were in the A or B/FX classes at the time. Although through the ages, people have figured out to make them work in the Super Stock classes. In the comparable Stock classes, you are better off running a 69 Camaro with the 375hp 396 if you want to win class.
The 428 just worked better for drag racing with a better torque curve over the 427.
The largest you can realistically take a 460 out is 557 before you run into rings falling out of the cylinders (lack of rod length) and non-streetable super compressed ring packages.
In reply to Javelin:
No, I believe he is poking fun that most 350's are 355's because everyone bores them 30 over, but still calls them 350's.
yamaha wrote:Javelin wrote:they aren't that bad......well, aside from the M(for mexican) designated 351/400(they're junk). Personally, a better story would be how long has the Chevy 350 not been a 350cu engine.yamaha wrote:Ah, yep, sorry about that. Damn Ford motors are just too confusing!Javelin wrote: Anywho, yes, the 427 is a smaller bore 406-based motor. The 428 is actually the better choice (and most BB Cobra's actually had 428's) due to it's larger bore (therefore larger valves, better breathing, lower piston speed, etc, etc) out of the FE family.I think you have it backwards.....the 428 was longer stroke and smaller bore.....hence why it was the torque monster of them.....
Actually, the "M" doesn't stand for Mexican. Those engines were built in Cleveland with the castings done in Michigan. I've mostly heard it referred to as "Modified", since it's a conglomeration of parts from other engines, but in reality they only used M to distinguish it from the 351W and C.
Hmmmm, not sure I should add to this.... or not.
A few simple truths....
428 bore = 4.13" 427 bore = 4.25"
Tunnel Ram 427 heads had no problems with breathing
427 engines cost far more to manufacture then the 428
FE = Ford Edsel...
Oh... and about NASCRAP designed engines... the "ultimate" (pos) the BOSS 429.... 385 engine
I believe some of the argument about 428 vs 427 is actually slightly off. The BIG argument in 69 and 70 was which was better the 429 BOSS(pos) or the 428 CJ, and SCJ. HERE is where the argument was... the BOSS engine SUCKED @ drag racing.. IT was designed for NASCRAP
In reply to yamaha:
The M in 400M has stood for a few different things depending on who you ask, this is the first time I've heard "Mexican" as a possible answer.
Here's where Hot Rod pulled over 500hp out of a 400M with aftermarket heads, they list a total bill of ~$6900 for it;
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_0702_ford_400m_engine_build/viewall.html
The problem with the 429, 460, etc etc is when they were made and the state of emission controls, some of which were integrated directly into the 400M.
bravenrace wrote: Actually, the "M" doesn't stand for Mexican. Those engines were built in Cleveland with the castings done in Michigan. I've mostly heard it referred to as "Modified", since it's a conglomeration of parts from other engines, but in reality they only used M to distinguish it from the 351W and C.
I was being a dick from personal experience with them.....sarcasm is extremely hard to express via computer. Still, the modified is nowhere near as good as the Cleveland, and nowhere near as good as the windsor.....that clear that up?
What is wrong with the M motors?
93EXCivic wrote: What is wrong with the M motors?
Basically, they came out in the 70's, as I understand it, they were meant for emissions purposes- a medium block, if oyu will, for the big cars that used to run big block engines. Most of them went into LTDs and Grand Marquis'. Our LTD Landau had a 400M before we yanked it for the 460.
The 400M wasn't a bad engine, they can be built up to make decent power, but the lack of parts support and smaller displacement kindof makes that a "meh?" proposition. So they end up as boat anchors, hauling around slow-arse 1970's land barges until one by one they rust away.
93EXCivic wrote: What is wrong with the M motors?
Try pre-internet times in my parts(basically pre-2004), we scrapped an almost rust free 78 f150 w/400M farm truck due to 1. not being able to find parts for it, 2. the parts we could find seemed to fail...alot, 3. the parts when found were generally twice as much as the windsor counterpart, 4. why put the money into it when you can build a more powerful windsor for less?
That answer the questions to what my opinion is based on? Everyone elses experiences may differ, but IMHO, they are garbage....
In reply to 93EXCivic:
Low compression (I think the highest was 8.4 to 1 CR), camshafts like broomsticks in profile, horrible emissions technology built into the head/intake instead of attached to the motor like we're used to today. I think the highest net horsepower rating was about 175 and we're talking about 6.6 liters swinging around.
Nearly all use the 385 bellhousing so a Windsor bellhousing swap isn't possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_335_engine#400
I want to think that a worked over set of factory heads with serious milling (and then work on an intake to let the thing seal again), headers, and some time on the phone with a cam company could turn these things into inexpensive powerhouses. The Hot Rod article I linked to makes it seem possible but I wouldn't call that thing a "budget build".
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